Old Speaker Swap

Discussion in 'Ampage Area' started by stiv, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Ricochet

    Ricochet I Bleed Orange

    Nov 13, 2009
    Monkey Island
    Creambacks, there are 3 different models(lots a favourable reviews) In general they’re supposed to have the “woody” Greenback character but with more modern functionality. Higher power, and more low end. Even when used in an open 2x12”, they were designed to sound like a closed 4x12” Greenback cab.
     
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  2. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Electromatic

    42
    Apr 12, 2020
    Maine
    I'd grab the Creamback right away and use that while you're trying to find the right reconer to get the old speaker fixed.
    It was the first speaker Celestion came up with after the Greenbacks of the '60s couldn't handle the power reliably enough, circa the mid '70s. It was originally called the G12M65 at the time that Celestion didn't call Greenbacks Greenbacks, we all gave them that nickname, so later Celestion decided to use the terms customers liked.
    Saying "Greenback" is actually wrong because there were maybe six different models we gave that name to, so Celestion later had to come up with model names we liked but were truthful.
    The G12M65 AKA Creamback is a fine well balanced speaker that sounds like a Celestion but maybe a little cleaner and able to handle more power. Very highly regarded and used by boutique builders a lot. Celestion recently released a Creamback 75 based on the G12H30, which would be fine too but is new and unlikely to be cheap. Then there's the "Cream" 90w alnico, not ;likly cheap either and a 10" cream something you don't want. If it's a 12" Celestion and cream colored it falls in the range of speakers that should work pretty well.

    As far as getting the almost 60yo speaker fixed, the sound of a speaker is in the cone and VC assembly, not in the magnet and frame.
    Many reconers will use whatever generic parts they have and you will get a working speaker that sounds nothing like the original.
    At one time there were NOS recone kits formost popular speakers because they all blew so easily. As power handling increased and the originals we covet got older, the old kits got used up. Even ten years ago you could get original cones that made old speakers sound original.
    Now very few reconers can put a correct cone assembly in a 58yo speaker.

    You might find that one needle in the haystack, but I'd get a replacement and then look for the repair shop.
    As far as recentering the old voice coil, that really never works out to be a reliable repair, as the VC will be worn/ distorted, and there will be other weakness that you really can't glue back together with the same results as original.

    Now and then an old speaker that sat unused for 50years just has old glue that crumbled and can be repaired with original parts.
    Here it seems the speaker has worn out, or at least has lots of miles on it.
    That Cream is your closest holy grail, grab it!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  3. YouFellowRebels

    YouFellowRebels Gretschie

    228
    Jun 17, 2020
    Minnesota
    Weber Blue Dog ceramics? I have one I’ve use in my Bad Cat Cougar 5 (ac4 like) and in my Savage Macht 12. Sounds great in both. A ceramic take on the Alnico Blue. Likely a little more low end (though not flabby) and the sparkling highs.
     
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  4. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Thanks man, there’s a lot of useful infos here. The Creamback it’s the easiest option, it’s not cheap but not too expensive as well.
    I guess I’ll follow your advice.
     
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  5. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Thanks for the hint. The problem with Blue Dogs, as far as I could see, is that they have a big magnet that most likely wouldn’t fit on the amp, that’s a closed back combo.
     
  6. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Electromatic

    42
    Apr 12, 2020
    Maine
    I run to the extreme and have a lot of speakers, but in this case I think it really makes sense to grab a good price used top quality speaker that's at least similar to what's broken.

    If you were in the US I might lean more toward asking Weber to build their best shot at that sound, but shipping kills that idea.

    At worst it will work and sound good, while at best you might like it better than the original.
     
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  7. Tony65x55

    Tony65x55 Gretschified

    Age:
    64
    Sep 23, 2011
    The 'Shwa, Ontario, Canada
    Eminence Legend GB128 - excellent speaker for British sounds. Like the Greenback and V30 with all the weird spikes taken out. Reasonable costs too.
     
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  8. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Electromatic

    42
    Apr 12, 2020
    Maine
    The ceramic Blue Dog has the flat magnet and is no bigger than the other ceramics, it's the alnico dogs that have the bigger mags.
     
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  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Electromatic

    42
    Apr 12, 2020
    Maine
    I was going to suggest the GB128 but saw that there is a used creamback locally so went that way.
    Parts shopping in the EU is as much about availability as about our favorites.
    So many options for old style Brutish speakers, all a little different but here it's hard to say exactly how the old worn Goodmans speaker sounded before it died.
     
  10. YouFellowRebels

    YouFellowRebels Gretschie

    228
    Jun 17, 2020
    Minnesota
    If you’d like I can measure mine! Second that the magnet on the ceramic is about the same as any ceramic, the alnico are much bigger. They make both versions.
     
    stiv likes this.
  11. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Ok, I googled it and yes, that’s the alnico I was thinking.
    Sadly there’s a guy in Rome who sells a Blue Dog at a reasonable price, but it’s 8 ohms and I need a 16. Darn it, I didn’t know I would struggle that much to find a 16 ohm replacement.. all those in the aftermarket are 8 ohms.
     
  12. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Yes, I was thinking about the Alnico. I guess the blue dog would work just fine. Although it’s not really easy to find Webers this side of the ocean.
     
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  13. YouFellowRebels

    YouFellowRebels Gretschie

    228
    Jun 17, 2020
    Minnesota
    Sorry! My bad for not noting you were over there!
     
  14. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Electromatic

    42
    Apr 12, 2020
    Maine
    I assume the used creamback is 16ohm?
    Grab it ASAP!

    As far as going for the Blue dog because after Vox used Goodmans they switched to the Celestion alnico and had them custom painted blue, AFAIK the blue sounded nothing like the Goodmans it replaced, so it may not be a similar sound as a replacement.

    I have an actual Celestion Blue reissue and an original as well, those are an extreme sound, and not likely to be similar to the old blown speaker. Much brighter and generally have less bass. I haven't tried the Weber Blue dog but that was their target sound.
     
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  15. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Done.
    I bought the Creamback. :) I’ll collect it this weekend as the guy who sold it lives in my mother’s town, then I’ll have it installed next week. I’m very curious to hear how it sounds.
    Thanks for the hints man.
     
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  16. Dana Rudd

    Dana Rudd Gretschie

    456
    Nov 26, 2019
    Greybull, WY
    Hope the replacement works great for you. Will be waiting to hear.
     
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  17. YouFellowRebels

    YouFellowRebels Gretschie

    228
    Jun 17, 2020
    Minnesota
    Hope you find sonic bliss! Can’t wait to hear how it sounds.
     
    stiv likes this.
  18. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Thanks man.
    My only doubt it’s about how a 15w powered amp will drive a 65w power speaker. But I guess it will be alright. Maybe I’ll have a cleaner sound even with both channels linked and dimed.
     
  19. j.s.c

    j.s.c Country Gent

    Aug 19, 2008
    france
    Could you pic this speaker ? Ceramic goodman or alnico. Btw they're both clearer than a greenback. I think I could have helped as I have (somewhere) in the house a 12" goodman from the '60, but I'm a bit late I presume.

    (the one of the left with the black cap... I swap it for the previous version which is std for this amp). Btw, I'm looking for one selmer gray plastic cap as the new one came broken (thus he's naked, which is a shame).
     

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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
    stiv likes this.
  20. stiv

    stiv Country Gent

    Sep 12, 2014
    Florence, Italy
    Thanks man, the Goodmans will go to the repair shop anyway so I’ll decide what it will stay installed based on the sound. Anyway, being the amp all original I’d keep it just in case I’ll decide to sell it one day.
    Btw, I think that the Goodmans on your pic (the one with Black cover) is a later version, probably from mid 70s. I jumped into one while looking for a replacement and that’s what I found. For what I remember, mine had a bigger iron bell with a more rounded top and no Selmer logo.
    But I’ll try to take a pic next week.
     
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