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Incredible Walnut Flame 6120

gasmoney

Gretschie
Aug 6, 2014
116
usa
Was there or was there not a purported 6120 doublecut with a 2 1/4" body with real bound small f-holes?
And while we're considering that, here's yet another walnut 6120 - allegedly from the 337xx batch.
I owned that 6120. I bought it from a GDP memner “bigsbyslur”. He sent the guitar back to gretsch around 63/64 for a refinis. he told me.
He has pictures of himself playing the guitar both before and after it was done. He played a lot of USO shows and such.
nice guitar. It’s in Ed’s book as well.
 

Pemberton

Synchromatic
Gold Supporting Member
May 4, 2022
564
Pennsylvania, USA
He sent the guitar back to gretsch around 63/64 for a refinis. he told me.
He has pictures of himself playing the guitar both before and after it was done.
Interesting. Typically when a guitar is refinished it loses half of its value. I wonder how the value is affected when it’s an official factory refinish that was done back when the guitar was still fairly new.

Maybe under those circumstances it’s worth the same, or perhaps more if someone really wants a 6120 in a color other than traditional orange. It is a beautiful looking guitar.
 

Wayne Gretschzky

Country Gent
Gold Supporting Member
Aug 27, 2008
3,876
East Coast
One man's opinion... a refin is a refin. From a collectors perspective it is still a modified guitar, regardless of who does the refinish work. Modified guitars typically lose collector value.

The other thing we've observed over the past 20 years is that a 6120 in any other color than orange can be a tough sell. The orange stain is an iconic feature of this model. Chet, Duane, Eddie, Pete, and Brian all made their orange 6120's famous. Purists tend to want that feature in their high-end collectible 6120. I have encountered several factory original single-cutaway 6120s in colors other than orange. Dealers tend to value them higher because of the anomaly, but they just don't seem to sell at those higher prices.

Anything can happen of course, and if there's a well healed collector out there who already owns multiple vintage single-cutaway 6120 specimens in the original orange stain, that might be a person who would pursue a custom color example. It just makes for a smaller pool of prospective buyers.
 

afire

Friend of Fred
Feb 12, 2009
6,386
Where the action is!
I owned that 6120. I bought it from a GDP memner “bigsbyslur”. He sent the guitar back to gretsch around 63/64 for a refinis. he told me.
And no doubt when you sold it you disclosed that it was a refin. Yet here it is with the finish is being described as "factory" (true) and "original" (not true). It's always hard to know who in the chain of ownership decides to obscure the known truth for an extra buck, but given that this guy is selling two known refins and one suspected refin as being original, my guess is that he's the guy who's hiding what he actually knows.
 

Highnumbers

Gretschie
Oct 11, 2009
120
Southern California
And no doubt when you sold it you disclosed that it was a refin. Yet here it is with the finish is being described as "factory" (true) and "original" (not true). It's always hard to know who in the chain of ownership decides to obscure the known truth for an extra buck, but given that this guy is selling two known refins and one suspected refin as being original, my guess is that he's the guy who's hiding what he actually knows.

This ^^

While not all refins are created (or valued) equally, you always have to disclose when it's a refin.

The "Factory Refin" thing is most prevalent in the Fender world and those carry a significantly higher value than a recently refinished guitar (and even among recently refinished guitars, there's a premium if a known name painted it, versus some guy in his garage). In some cases, a factory refinished Fender in a custom color can be worth as much as the same guitar in original sunburst.

The fact that this 6120 was refinished at Gretsch in a 60s color is a pretty cool part of it's story, and I imagine that would add value to a buyer beyond most other refins.
 

gasmoney

Gretschie
Aug 6, 2014
116
usa
I
And no doubt when you sold it you disclosed that it was a refin. Yet here it is with the finish is being described as "factory" (true) and "original" (not true). It's always hard to know who in the chain of ownership decides to obscure the known truth for an extra buck, but given that this guy is selling two known refins and one suspected refin as being original, my guess is that he's the guy who's hiding what he actually knows.
yes I told him when I sold it . he was a bit enamored with the fact it was in the new 6120 book at that time. It was a fellow GDP member who lived in Massachusetts.
 

afire

Friend of Fred
Feb 12, 2009
6,386
Where the action is!
The fact that this 6120 was refinished at Gretsch in a 60s color is a pretty cool part of it's story, and I imagine that would add value to a buyer beyond most other refins
And it's not out of the question that he could actually get about what he's asking with good documentation of it being a factory refin and this is apparently the rare case where that's available with a known original owner to attest to it and photographic evidence of when it occurred. That guitar has a lot going for it. I should probably be careful not to talk myself into going after it. It's certainly more appealing than the other more dubious one that he has priced twice as high.

When I see a seller like this one with prices all over the map I suspect that the explanation is that he's not a very discriminating buyer and he just bases his asking price on what he paid. Evidently he did okay on this one and the nice and clean '56 and '60 that have already sold and got fleeced on the refinished '55 and the other flamed walnut '60.

yes I told him when I sold it .
I was thinking about guitars that change hands a few times where it could have been anybody along the way who made the decision to knowingly misrepresent originality. If there were no owners between you and him, that sort of eliminates any doubt about whether he's the one who decided to fudge the truth.
 

knavel

Country Gent
Dec 26, 2009
1,171
London, England
yes I told him when I sold it . he was a bit enamored with the fact it was in the new 6120 book at that time. It was a fellow GDP member who lived in Massachusetts.
I don't know if the seller is a GDP member or member of this site, but he's in California not Massachusetts. I presume the instrument was since sold on to the guy in California now selling it(?)
When I see a seller like this one with prices all over the map I suspect that the explanation is that he's not a very discriminating buyer and he just bases his asking price on what he paid. Evidently he did okay on this one and the nice and clean '56 and '60 that have already sold and got fleeced on the refinished '55 and the other flamed walnut '60.
This might well be true. I certainly didn't get a mind blowing price for the 56 from him.
 

Wayne Gretschzky

Country Gent
Gold Supporting Member
Aug 27, 2008
3,876
East Coast

Pemberton

Synchromatic
Gold Supporting Member
May 4, 2022
564
Pennsylvania, USA
Gorgeous! But not a bit of gold plating left... anywhere(?). It's typical for the Filtertrons and control knobs to lose their gold luster over the decades, but usually the tuning machines retain some evidence of the gold. I'm certainly not insinuating anything here... just an observation from a flamey 6120 addict!
Maybe when it had lost half of its gold, someone decided it would look better to just clean and remove the remaining gold. Just a wild guess.

Also, and too bad, but the fretboard binding looks to be not in the best shape, lots of cracks, so that will probably have to be addressed if it’s going to be a player. But what a beautiful flame top!

03B49CCA-126C-4449-8BEB-D008B031DCCE.jpeg
 

afire

Friend of Fred
Feb 12, 2009
6,386
Where the action is!
Maybe when it had lost half of its gold, someone decided it would look better to just clean and remove the remaining gold. Just a wild guess.
After reading Ed's post and taking a second look the same thought occurred to me. You can tell all the hardware was once gold since it's nickel and not chrome, but the degree to which it has disappeared does almost look deliberate. Not that it's a bad look, IMO.
Also, and too bad, but the fretboard binding looks to be not in the best shape, lots of cracks, so that will probably have to be addressed if it’s going to be a player. But what a beautiful flame top!
With any luck, it'll wind up in the hands of a proactive owner. The neck binding needs to be replaced and what might even be more critical is the strip of binding in the cutaway that connects the top and back. It's really getting bad there but mercifully doesn't appear to have spread to the main body binding. With a relatively minor procedure it might be spared from metastatic binding rot. Leaving that strip alone is like leaving a malignant tumor alone and hoping for the best.
IMG_3180-scaled.jpg
 


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