Bigsby and string tension

[shanekislack]

A year or two ago I put 10s...maybe even 9s on my 6120DE. (Was having radial nerve issues that affected playability) The bigsy was so strong the strings couldn't hold it down and raised up like 4 inches off the surface. So I ordered a slimmer spacer that goes under the spring. Brought the bigsby back down to the right height...but it feels like it made the string tension twice as tight. Way tighter than les Pauls and even tighter than my teles.

Is there a rule about Bigsbys and string tension.

 

[Synchro]

It couldn’t affect the tension of the speaking length of the strings. String tension on the speaking length is determined by the speaking length of the string, the gauge of the string, and the pitch to which it is tuned.


The apparent tension of the Bigsby action would be higher with a shorter spring, because a coil spring is, essentially, a coiled torsion bar, and the shorter the spring, the higher the spring rate, all other factors being equal.

 

[shanekislack]

This is counter intuitive. After all moving the wang bar drops the tone...and if you have a floyd rose you can pretty much dive or pull several tones. So when you push down on the wang bar, the tone flattens. So I'd say, it does affect string tension. In addition, with 11s they everything seemed normal. 9s changed everything.

 

[dmunson]

I think that Synchro was referring to strings tuned to pitch. And he's correct. Once you hit the Bigsby, pitch drops accordingly.

 

[shanekislack]

Yep, I get that. He also said the Bigsby will have no impact on string tension when in fact, it's constantly a tug of war between bigsby even when you're not playing it. That's what I was referring...with all due respect.

 

[Synchro]

Yep, I get that. He also said the Bigsby will have no impact on string tension when in fact, it's constantly a tug of war between bigsby even when you're not playing it. That's what I was referring...with all due respect.

But the Bigsby can’t change the amount of tension it takes to tune a string to pitch. That amount of tension is solely determined by three factors: speaking length, mass of the string (basically diameter) and the pitch. The string doesn’t sense whether it’s anchored to a Bigsby or a fixed tailpiece.

The spring in the Bigsby will behave differently, depending upon upon the tension of the string set. Most of my Gretsch guitars have 10-47 Thomastik flat-wounds, and use the shorter, 7/8” spring. If I went to a heavier set, I might have to either shim the spring, or go up to a 1” spring, to keep the handle of the Bigsby at the same height, but that is due to the heavier strings having greater string tension, and exerting more force on the tailpiece. The strings are the causative factor, and this page explains that quite well.

As an experiment, tune the guitar a whole step lower, and you’ll see that the handle is higher. If you put a shorter, or less stiff spring in the Bigsby, it would compress further, but the tension required to bring the string to pitch would be the same, no matter what spring is in the Bigsby.

What would change, is the amount of force it takes to move the Bigsby handle downward. When pushing down on the Bigsby, you are working against the force of the spring. If you put in a lighter spring, the Bigsby will move downward more easily.

If you are pulling up on the Bigsby, you are now working to increase the tension on the strings, which raises the pitch, and the resistance you feel is coming from the strings. The heavier the strings, the greater the resistance.

The disconnect here may be a matter of wording. Yes, the Bigsby operates by decreasing or increasing tension of the strings. But the spring in the Bigsby has no effect, whatsoever, upon the tension required for a string to be tuned to pitch. Assuming that you are not touching the Bigsby, it has no effect, at all. If you are manipulating the arm of the Bigsby, you are changing string tension, but you are also changing the pitch of the string, in the process.

When you let go of the arm, the spring returns to string to pitch, because the string tension balances the resistance of the string. This balance is established when you tune the guitar, and should remain constant, unless you literally stretch the string beyond its yield point, or there is slippage.

 

[Danno]

Interesting experience the OP is having. I'm no expert for handle height. I didn't even know a spring change could change that.

My experience a Bigsby on a Tele was harder to use than on a Gretsch. Could be the tension bar could be the neck length. The Tele took more effort to use.

I find Bigsby on a Gretsch the handle does stick further away from the body of the guitar.

I find I can go a string gauge higher on a Gretsch vs a Tele and pretty sure others told me it was due to neck length. 11s on a Gretsch are as easy as 9s or 10s on a Tele for me.

As a player who has had multiple wrist injuries in their fretting hand I can understand and sympathize your current experience. I haven't played guitar in weeks and been dropping drinking glasses etc from a broken wrist in 09 when a car hit me while cycling that required physical therapy and injections and killed my bicycle mechanic career.

My advice for you is worry less about string gauge and focus more on position. I want to play like Elvis with the neck perfectly level with the floor but when I do I can't last more than 2 minutes. Playing classical style with the guitar testing on my fretting leg vs strumming leg and the fretting hand up by my face lets me play for an hour plus. I can't play standing up. In the end it's about compromise. Whatever gets you playing more.

 

[shanekislack]

That makes more since, Syncro...at least the wording. Thx

Danno, sorry to hear about your accident, hope you get back to playing

 

[Synchro]

Interesting experience the OP is having. I'm no expert for handle height. I didn't even know a spring change could change that.

My experience a Bigsby on a Tele was harder to use than on a Gretsch. Could be the tension bar could be the neck length. The Tele took more effort to use.

I find Bigsby on a Gretsch the handle does stick further away from the body of the guitar.

I find I can go a string gauge higher on a Gretsch vs a Tele and pretty sure others told me it was due to neck length. 11s on a Gretsch are as easy as 9s or 10s on a Tele for me.

As a player who has had multiple wrist injuries in their fretting hand I can understand and sympathize your current experience. I haven't played guitar in weeks and been dropping drinking glasses etc from a broken wrist in 09 when a car hit me while cycling that required physical therapy and injections and killed my bicycle mechanic career.

My advice for you is worry less about string gauge and focus more on position. I want to play like Elvis with the neck perfectly level with the floor but when I do I can't last more than 2 minutes. Playing classical style with the guitar testing on my fretting leg vs strumming leg and the fretting hand up by my face lets me play for an hour plus. I can't play standing up. In the end it's about compromise. Whatever gets you playing more.

You are giving good advice. Years and years ago, I had an instructor that insisted I use a classical approach to left hand technique. That changed my life as a player, and made it much easier for me to be comfortable playing a variety of guitars.

When I play, whether standing or sitting, my left wrist is kept straight. This has kept my wrist happy, and healthy. A few years back, a shoulder injury had me at the orthopedic surgeon’s office and, as a precaution, they did a nerve conduction test, which showed that I had no carpal-tunnel issues, even after decades of playing and over 20 years of using computer keyboards as a big part of my occupation.

One thing I recently learned, the hard way, was to never bend using my little finger. I started out using my third finger to provide the bending force and keeping my fourth finger on the fret above. Over time, I started pushing the bend with the fourth finger, and I started having some problems because of it. One day, I found myself experiencing pain in my left hand, and I quickly realized that anytime I bent a string with my fourth finger, the pain was triggered.

The answer involves rethinking my technique. I still use a one fret per finger, so no cheating by slipping my third finger up to a higher fret, so instead of bending with my fourth finger, I slide up to pitch. I’ve learned to make it sound ok, but it took some effort. I know that many Rock players use their third fingers to bend, four frets above their first finger. It does work, and I see the sense of this approach, but the classical fingering techniques were hard won, and I resist anything that could erode those habits.

Bending is an essential technique, but there are downsides. While I have no carpal tunnel issues, I find that too much bending can irritate some tendons in my left arm. I’m learning to be careful.

That makes more since, Syncro...at least the wording. Thx

Danno, sorry to hear about your accident, hope you get back to playing

I think we were talking past one another, but we seem to be on the same page now.

 

[shanekislack]

You are giving good advice. Years and years ago, I had an instructor that insisted I use a classical approach to left hand technique. That changed my life as a player, and made it much easier for me to be comfortable playing a variety of guitars.

When I play, whether standing or sitting, my left wrist is kept straight. This has kept my wrist happy, and healthy. A few years back, a shoulder injury had me at the orthopedic surgeon’s office and, as a precaution, they did a nerve conduction test, which showed that I had no carpal-tunnel issues, even after decades of playing and over 20 years of using computer keyboards as a big part of my occupation.

One thing I recently learned, the hard way, was to never bend using my little finger. I started out using my third finger to provide the bending force and keeping my fourth finger on the fret above. Over time, I started pushing the bend with the fourth finger, and I started having some problems because of it. One day, I found myself experiencing pain in my left hand, and I quickly realized that anytime I bent a string with my fourth finger, the pain was triggered.

The answer involves rethinking my technique. I still use a one fret per finger, so no cheating by slipping my third finger up to a higher fret, so instead of bending with my fourth finger, I slide up to pitch. I’ve learned to make it sound ok, but it took some effort. I know that many Rock players use their third fingers to bend, four frets above their first finger. It does work, and I see the sense of this approach, but the classical fingering techniques were hard won, and I resist anything that could erode those habits.

Bending is an essential technique, but there are downsides. While I have no carpal tunnel issues, I find that too much bending can irritate some tendons in my left arm. I’m learning to be careful.

I think we were talking past one another, but we seem to be on the same page now.

Yes, I've always bent with my fourth finger with the third supporting it. I tried to use my pinky but the string went right up under my nail. I'm working on a solo right now that requires you to bend a whole tone on the G at the 6th fret...keep it there while I hit the E on the 7th then 5th, then I can bring the bend back down. You can hear this same technique on Wish You Were here

 

[shanekislack]

Jeezus, I'm so dumb. I was looking for the spacer to get it back to original and then carry on...and came across the old spring...which means I replaced the spring, not the spacer, with a less powerful one. Sorry for wasting everyone's time, but still let me know why this would be. Keep in mind I did this last year and have old man brain. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast.

 

[Synchro]

Jeezus, I'm so dumb. I was looking for the spacer to get it back to original and then carry on...and came across the old spring...which means I replaced the spring, not the spacer, with a less powerful one. Sorry for wasting everyone's time, but still let me know why this would be. Keep in mind I did this last year and have old man brain. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast.

A shorter spring would make the Bigsby action feel different.

I’m pretty sure I had breakfast, but then again, those dirty dishes could have come from invading space aliens.

 

[Danno]

sorry for wasting everyone's time

NOT AT ALL. We all let's from each other even when we answer our own questions after talking out loud vs in our heads. Many will learn from this post over the years. Glad you brought it up.

 

[shanekislack]

Today I did a string change back tens until I can figure out where the sweet spot is. I also put the original bigsby back in and took out the space. Plays great, go figure. Now I'm fighting the urge not to put the original space roller bridge back on. I know why the tune o matic is better...but I kind of like having original.

By the way, I bought it in 1997 and it still looks like the picture or even a Gretsch catalogue. I love putting some lemon oil on an ebony fretboard. 26 yrs old...is that a classic or vintage?

 

[SLICKFASTER]

My 10cents..
On my older 6120 I can get the Bigsby handle to raise slightly with a string bend.
My BSHR has a softer taller spring. I can definitely get the arm/cam to move more so and enough to flatten the pitch of strings I’m not bending.
I like the tug of war analogy. Guessing the softer Bigsby spring puts up less of a fight and my strings feel to bend easier.
The Bigsby arm action is definitely spongier….
As a stop tail would have zero give.
Uh.. ya….

 

[Synchro]

Today I did a string change back tens until I can figure out where the sweet spot is. I also put the original bigsby back in and took out the space. Plays great, go figure. Now I'm fighting the urge not to put the original space roller bridge back on. I know why the tune o matic is better...but I kind of like having original.

By the way, I bought it in 1997 and it still looks like the picture or even a Gretsch catalogue. I love putting some lemon oil on an ebony fretboard. 26 yrs old...is that a classic or vintage?

It‘s haunted. That’s the only explanation.

For sound quality, I’ve found that solid bridges work best. The Gretsch Rocking Bar bridge, a Compton, or a True Arc, something like that.

 

[gretsch-to-go]

Roller saddles & floating bridge work best for Bigsby Vibratos. String Break angles need to be reduced. For Les Paul types & Bigsby B5, Vibramate bracket will allow one to use the stop bar threaded inserts for TOM style fixed bridges for a Bigsby installation.

VIBRAMATE® - Innovative Music Products - Made in USA

Vibramate - Now you can easily install a vibrato on your guitar without drilling any holes

www.vibramate.com

BIGSBY VIBRATOS – I Can Build Anything

www.bigsby.com

 

[Zeek]

I put a bigsby on my p 90 gold top with a vibamate.
I can not put it in a case.
The arm is so high it is in the next room lol.
I deal with it but next string change I was thinking of bending it to a more friendly spot.

 

[Synchro]

Tension-bar Bigsbys are not so straightforward. All of my Bigsby equipped guitars have B-6s or the Gretsch or Guild branded equivalent, and these work fine, without any accessories. I use either Compton or Rocking-Bar bridges.

I should point out that most of my Bigsby use is subtle.

 

[shanekislack]

You are all making correct points...which I happen to know (finally). Wonder why Duane wanted the space roller. I believe he was very much involved in the design and build...so why did he choose the space roller?