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Discussion in 'Ampage Area' started by MrWookiee, Apr 29, 2021.
A moment of enlightenment came to me when a friend said that amps are instruments unto themselves.
Indeed for sure ! How many Guys with costy-vintage-collector guitars play on their Rockman-like amp or PC ? And they discuss for hours about their tone... That tone they never heard !
Thanks Pete, it is definitely Audio 101 but still doesn't answer the questions I had regarding perceived power output or it's power effect on speakers.
No, I took Fender at face value.
They say, "faithfully modeling the circuitry and 22-watt power output of an original Deluxe tube amp. Using a high-performance 100-watt digital power amp to achieve the headroom and dynamic range of a real vintage Deluxe tube amp." and they advertise, " And when it comes time to fill a stage, the Tone Master has output to spare — 100-watt solid-state amp packs SPLs comparable to the 22-watt tube classic."
The speaker is a 35 W Jensen C12Q and it came out of my 22w (tube) DR and into the 100 W Tonemaster DR where it is about the same volume.
The question is two part. (A) why is Fender using a 100 watt digital amp to "achieve the headroom and dynamic range of a real vintage Deluxe tube amp?" My only theory is so they can make the output crystal clean to permit the modeling preamp to accurately model up to 22w with the correct amount of modeling to make the increase sound natural like the tubes of the original.
Part B. If that is not the situation is my 35w speaker getting slammed with 100w and if that was the case, why is the speaker not distorting and distressing as the volume rises up to where a tube DR goes? Is it getting 100w RMS of inaudible transients so it sounds like 22w but blows out like 100w would do?
With your budget, I’d go for a Katana 100 MKii or the Katana Artist MKii. Get the GA-FC foot controller, especially if you want to gig.
Those amps are very versatile, sound good and have some good built in effects. They turn down well and turn up great.
I've got a LT-25 use it every day but mostly on one or two settings clean or clean with a little reverb and slight gain. It really is a nice Amp but the settings are overwhelming at first. However, when I want to hear myself like in the days of old I fire up my converted Fender PA 100 Tube Amp and Feel the music.
FWIW One of the amps that I had a few years back that for some odd reason I really ended up liking a lot was a Fender Super Champ XD. It is a tube amp in the sense is has one preamp tube (12AX7) and two power tubes (2 x 6V6), but it also has a solid state section for the various amp models and effects it supports. I bought mine new, and also bought the foot switch to be able to switch between "channels". I also replaced the stock speaker with a Celestion Tube 10. All of that cost me well under your budgetary figure.
The Celestion speaker made a huge improvement to the sound (at least to me), but you could probably upgrade to an even better speaker and still be well under your $$$ threshold.
The positives are the amp has various models and effects for different sound combinations (some of which I really liked). You wouldn't need to buy pedals at least until you put away a few more bucks and decided which effects you wanted to focus on. It was reasonably lightweight and small so it could be (and often was) taken out for jam sessions at friends. Some of the later models may have had download capabilities and a headphone jack, but mine either didn't or I didn't ever use those features.
The possible downsides are it has a 10" speaker which may not give you as full of a sound as a 12" (though it never bothered me), the amp models and effects are not going to be as pure or pristine as either the specific amp or pedal that the model or effect emulates (though again, I found several combinations that I thought were perfect, but that's just me).
I actually liked it a lot, but like a lot of other gear I ended up selling it (to one of my friends, who likes it a lot and still has it).
Don't know if anyone else in the forum has or had one of these, but as I pare down my stash of amplifiers (and replenish it!) I may get another one some day.
A) Agreed, how much of that 100W are they actually using? Marketing speak and tech speak are two wildly different things, in that the later actually conveys information So it may not be delivering 100W to the speaker. Even if it did, the TM is only providing 4.4X the power when fully dimed... it takes about 10X the wattage to double the perceived volume, so even fully dimed you might not hear a huge difference between the two. Should measure the actual output of the TM and the Deluxe on a test bench.
B) Either the 100W claim is suspect as we both note, or the Tonemaster at 100W saturating the Jensens' magnet, compressing the signal and producing a lower output. Although I assume neither amp is dimed during this experiment. On a positive note, if your 35W Jensen melts within the next few weeks, we'll have our answer.
Does the frequency response sound the same?
@MrWookiee, sorry to hijack your thread. Tony has pointed out an interesting head-scratcher.
No worries! It is interesting to me, too... though it is also kind of an accelerant for the GAS.
Excelerated gas, sounds like a DR visit is in order!
Yep. Sorry Mr Wookiee. I'm bad.
Yes, the frequency response sounds normal and natural for a DR and the 35w Jensen has been in there since last summer.
Maybe Jensen sells their 100W speakers with 35W labels on them. Who would know?
Maybe I missed it but did you grab an amp?
Not yet. I'll be trying out the various units suggested as opportunities arise.
Unless the GAS demon takes control...
Beware ! These ones below could be dangerously trigerring...
How is the little Winfield? I have amp-gas bad myself. I have the 5c3 tweed and the Blackface sounds covered, so I'm trying to diversify away from the Fender sound with a new boutique 10-ish watt tube amp head and a budget of $1000. I generally like clean tones that I can modify with pedals. My current top contenders are the 18 watt "Winfield" and the 10 watt Reeves Custom HG 10.
I love the little Typhoon but would love the bigger brother as well. Very Voxy and responsive. I must confess to liking Voxy tones over Fender generally.
@Synchro has had or has both he can fill you in better than I can.
So I've put all of the suggested amps into a spreadsheet (it's how I roll) and discovered that I have 28 amps to try, 10 of which are Fenders. Maybe I'll take a trip down to GC and embarrass myself. Will have to go up to the Sillycon Valley fairly soon for a different reason but there are lots more vendors to hit while I'm up there if I can make the time. I'm also waffling about getting a head unit and building or buying a cabinet with one of the flat(er)-response speakers made for modeling amps. Already bought a switching jack so I could drive one with the Fly 3 if necessary (it only drives a 4 ohm load though).
I have a couple combos but really love the head cab option for the simple reasons that something as simple as a different speaker can completely change the character of an amp. When I learned this I was set free from amp chasing, almost.