Amp GAS here also

Bertotti

Friend of Fred
Jul 20, 2017
9,754
South Dakota
It is funny really, not funny haha but funny yep. I got lucky with my first tube amp. I bought a Marshall DFX 50 which was upper limit of the budget I set and sounded good in the store. Got home and couldn’t get the sound of a Peaver Triple XXX Super Forty out of my head. I didn’t try it but another guy was playing around with it. It was outside my budget. It was so full and filled the room. The MG at my house just starters sound more and more harsh and sterile as days went by. I called the store manager three days later and asked if I could return it for the TX of it was still there. It was and had been for over a year. It made it out the door for a week once but got returned because the guy couldn’t get the eq to work the way he wanted. Low and behold it used some active EQ on different channels. Almost no one at the time realized that and would set it the way they would set a passive eq which never sounded quite right, so, I made out like a bandit because the users didn’t know how to dial in a good tone with it. Sometimes the hardest part is learning to tweak our gear to it’s full potential.
 

MKunie

Country Gent
Feb 8, 2012
1,038
Vegas,USA
I have a Blues King 12, which is the same amp, except for the covering. With my 4 Gretsches, the amp is amazing! Loud and yet bedroom levels all have a great tone. I really do not use the switches and she sounds great, I mean really good! You will not go wrong with the amp! Good Luck!..
I'd love to get a Nocturne amp but they are far out of reach. On paper, and based on Utube videos I've been thinking about a Supro Delta King (10 or 12) or a Blackstar Studio 10 Special Edition. Outside of budget, the trouble is that I'm so new to guitar, and not in search of a particular sound, that I don't know what I want. My playing is coming along but isn't anywhere near where I'd be comfortable demoing an amp at GC, even if I knew how to properly demo one. Oh, and the nearest GC is about 80 miles away, in Lancaster CA (though I could drive 3hrs to Hollyweird and have more options). If it matters, I'd be playing my G2627T with BroadTrons, partscaster Tele, and Ibanez. Not looking at a particular genre but probably nothing with huge distortion. Also won't be gigging any time soon (as a guitarist) if ever. What sayest the august denizens of G-T?
 

pmac11

Country Gent
Mar 4, 2018
3,664
Toronto, Ontario
A new Quilter Aviator Cub fits in your budget.Lightweight 50W 112 combo with Fender voicing. Or Find a used Mesa F30 combo. You'll have great amp and money left over.
 
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Rmccamey

Gretschie
Aug 28, 2020
133
Texas
Great discussion. Looks like amps almost always deliver something less than their advertised rating. How would you buy speakers, ie how are speakers rated, by peak or RMS?

Well, it's a nonsense @Jerzey Bob.

Sorry to say that : it's a legend that has no scientifical basis, no measurement protocol. It exactly like considering that 1kg of feather is lighter than one 1kg of lead... Or 250HP from a Chevrolet is higher than 250HP from a Ford : Yes, we all know that a 250HP V8 equals 125HP 8-in-line... o_O:D

A Watt is a Watt, no matter the technology : it's measurable and indisputable, with a protocol :

Prms (W) = Urms² (VAC)/Rload (Ohms)

Usually taken at sine wave of a given frequency, at onset of clipping checked on an oscilloscope screen (enough criteria for guitar amps), and for a given Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) percentage for Hi-Fi.

Onset of clipping measurement as described above means "pure clean tone upper limit" when played by a guitar.

Now guitar players believe what they wants to believe - and more than that - amp brands quote their amp power output how they want... o_O

Fender usually quite often specified a RMS power output on a resistive load at onset of clipping, for a THD at 5% for 400 or 1KHz.

Check a SF, BF or RI Fender Princeton Reverb using that measurement procedure, and you will find 12 to 15W rms, usually around 14W rms at onset of clipping. That's what the PR is specified for by Fender.

Do it on a SF BlackFace or SF 100-watters Twin-Reverb, and you find circa 80-85Wrms.

Check a Marshal Vintage Modern 2x12" 2266 with 2xKT66, announced at 50Wrms : you measure 25Wrms. :eek:

Check a ENGL Screamer 50, also announced at 50Wrms : you barely reach 35Wrms.

Check a Marshall 18W 1974X : it measures 10Wrms at onset of clipping, AND 18W true rms at full clipping (sine wave in, square wave out). :confused:

Check a Fender Bassman 6G6-B head from circa 1964 : it's 42-43Wrms, same for a BF/SF Super and Pro Reverb, all announced at 45Wrms.

My Boogie MKIIA, when supplied 240V on 220V at the selector - and biased "hot" in order to have the announced 100W, reaches not more than 92-95Wrms. Otherwise, it delivers 75-80Wrms.

My Solid-state Peavey Special 130 is specified 130W/4ohms and reaches 160Wrms at onset of clipping when I measure it.
View attachment 161445

OK - I stop ! :D

Trust me : never 100W solid-state equals 50W tubes, not even roughly... :confused:

Again, It's me :D, and you believe what or who you want... OK ? ;)

A+!
 

loudnlousy

Gretschified
Oct 18, 2015
12,517
Germany
Be patient and check out lots of amps. Watch some youtube vids and listen to some bands at your local club (when they are open again).
650 USD is a lot of money and you will find a lot of decent amps in the used market.
Remember that the electric guitar is a more complex instrument. In fact it consists of the guitar+the cables+the effects+the amp+ the speakers.

What feels and sounds nice to me will not neccessarily sound and feel good to you. Check all these things personally and take your time.
 

Lockupyourfatdog

Synchromatic
Aug 8, 2016
954
Everett wa
Lancaster is 80 miles away? Are you from the Taft area?

I just got a vox ac15. I’m surprised by how versatile it is just by itself. Nice cleans, great distortion, good reverb and trem. I only use an echo pedal with it. The rest of the sound comes straight from the amp. Only 550 used in mint condition.
 

hcsterg

Friend of Fred
Feb 13, 2012
6,654
France
Great discussion. Looks like amps almost always deliver something less than their advertised rating. How would you buy speakers, ie how are speakers rated, by peak or RMS?

It's another great tell-tale story, @Rmccamey... :rolleyes:;)

Like on amps, manufacturers can specify what they want, not what they should, and this even more easily because it is more difficult to check for an individual, unlike RMS power output at onset of clipping. But indeed, serious brands like Eminence, Celestion, EV, Gauss, etc... Offer reliable specs on their speakers.

In short : RMS power in Watts is the acknowledged rule by manufacturers for years. It's a long-duration measurement procedure under RMS U and I signal, or calibrated noise - sorry I do not remember the details or the measurement protocol (I should rewise :oops:), but there is one (at least !) and well defined. RMS is IMHO the most realistic way to reasonably specify the continuous admissible power by a speaker.

Peak power, or Musical power is usually considered as being 2X the RMS power, sometimes less, sometimes more o_O... It's the instant peak power that a speaker is supposed to handle "without damage", and I think that it is also widely acknowledged. Again, the protocols are not always the same for all builders.

Personally, I only consider the power specified in Watts RMS. The others power ratings goes from certainly possible, to questionable and up to purely fanciful, depending on the way they have been "qualified"... :D

For instance, I really don't think that a 1200 PMPO Watts of a karaoke/computer loudspeaker set (below left) would be able in any way to withstand the comparison with the 200 RMS Watts of an Electro-voice EVM 12L (below right)... :eek::confused:

images
upload_2021-5-1_21-45-10.png

But it's me, OK ? :D;)

A+!
 

Waxhead

Friend of Fred
Aug 30, 2014
5,186
Australia
I'd love to get a Nocturne amp but they are far out of reach. On paper, and based on Utube videos I've been thinking about a Supro Delta King (10 or 12) or a Blackstar Studio 10 Special Edition. Outside of budget, the trouble is that I'm so new to guitar, and not in search of a particular sound, that I don't know what I want. My playing is coming along but isn't anywhere near where I'd be comfortable demoing an amp at GC, even if I knew how to properly demo one. Oh, and the nearest GC is about 80 miles away, in Lancaster CA (though I could drive 3hrs to Hollyweird and have more options). If it matters, I'd be playing my G2627T with BroadTrons, partscaster Tele, and Ibanez. Not looking at a particular genre but probably nothing with huge distortion. Also won't be gigging any time soon (as a guitarist) if ever. What sayest the august denizens of G-T?

I say 2 things

a) Don't consider a new amp until you know exactly what budget and features you want.
Eg - budget, tube or SS technology, # of watts, what tones, what gain variation, how many channels, independent EQs, FX loop, weight, size, head or combo etc etc.

And only way you can answer these questions is to fully test gear yourself.

b) Don't consider any new gear at all until you get over your fear of testing gear in stores yourself.
Until you do this you'll have little idea of what you're buying and will be dependent on mostly useless youtube videos :)
 
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Tony65x55

Gretschified
Sep 23, 2011
13,288
The 'Shwa, Ontario, Canada
I say 2 things

a) Don't consider a new amp until you know exactly what budget and features you want.
Eg - budget, tube or SS technology, # of watts, what tones, what gain variation, how many channels, independent EQs, FX loop, weight, size, head or combo etc etc.

And only way you can answer these questions is to fully test gear yourself.

b) Don't consider any new gear at all until you get over your fear of testing gear in stores yourself.
Until you do this you'll have little idea of what you're buying and will be dependent on mostly useless youtube videos :)

Another vote for an AC10. Great little amps but you should really try one first. Try lots of different amplifiers before you choose...just take your time and do it when you are comfortable.

There's a lot of wisdom in these two posts.
 

hcsterg

Friend of Fred
Feb 13, 2012
6,654
France
I've been thinking about a Supro Delta King (10 or 12) or a Blackstar Studio 10 Special Edition.

Already good candidates, IMHO :cool:... But the choice is so wide ! :confused:

Outside of budget, the trouble is that I'm so new to guitar, and not in search of a particular sound, that I don't know what I want.

You are a wise Guy, @MrWookiee... I wasn't so reasonable : my 1st amp was this, bought 2nd hand :

6bZMIb-IMG-0319.jpg


But I still have it, 41 years later... Among many others... :oops::rolleyes::D

I don't know if this one has been mentioned, but it seems to be a cool amp too - the successor of the Blues King 12 you thought about :

upload_2021-5-2_16-49-13.png

A+!
 

Tony65x55

Gretschified
Sep 23, 2011
13,288
The 'Shwa, Ontario, Canada
It's another great tell-tale story, @Rmccamey... :rolleyes:;)

Like on amps, manufacturers can specify what they want, not what they should, and this even more easily because it is more difficult to check for an individual, unlike RMS power output at onset of clipping. But indeed, serious brands like Eminence, Celestion, EV, Gauss, etc... Offer reliable specs on their speakers.

In short : RMS power in Watts is the acknowledged rule by manufacturers for years. It's a long-duration measurement procedure under RMS U and I signal, or calibrated noise - sorry I do not remember the details or the measurement protocol (I should rewise :oops:), but there is one (at least !) and well defined. RMS is IMHO the most realistic way to reasonably specify the continuous admissible power by a speaker.

Peak power, or Musical power is usually considered as being 2X the RMS power, sometimes less, sometimes more o_O... It's the instant peak power that a speaker is supposed to handle "without damage", and I think that it is also widely acknowledged. Again, the protocols are not always the same for all builders.

Personally, I only consider the power specified in Watts RMS. The others power ratings goes from certainly possible, to questionable and up to purely fanciful, depending on the way they have been "qualified"... :D

For instance, I really don't think that a 1200 PMPO Watts of a karaoke/computer loudspeaker set (below left) would be able in any way to withstand the comparison with the 200 RMS Watts of an Electro-voice EVM 12L (below right)... :eek::confused:

But it's me, OK ? :D;)

A+!

HC, what you are saying makes absolute sense to me. As long as we are using RMS ratings, a watt is a watt.

But.

The Fender Tonemaster Deluxe uses a 100-watt digital amp and Fender states that this 100-watt amp is used to make the TM as loud as its 22-watt tube counterpart - which it does. I have a few DRs and Fender was bang on - the TM is as loud as a tube DR - no louder in spite of the large difference in RMS rating.

Riddle two.

A speaker translates wattage into volume (SPL.) I tried a number of speakers in the TM that worked well in other DRs. Every one of these speakers handled the TM volume output with ease. The speaker I settled with was the Jensen C12Q, a 35 watt speaker yet it doesn't seem to be under any stress in the TM nor is it any louder than it was in a tube DR despite the TM pushing out 100 watts RMS.

Why would that be? Since players buy the DRs based on a moderate output level I cannot imagine a 100-watt power level would be a sales feature. In fact, Fender even downplays it by stating they did this to make the volume level about the same as a tube DR. And it is with all the speakers I tested.

Since the speaker's job is to turn RMS wattage into sound pressure wouldn't the volume be several DB louder than in a tube-powered DR? I ask, because it's not, it's about the same.

With the C12Q - an inefficient yet great-sounding speaker - my volume level is about the same as a good Princeton Reverb.

I am confused. Are there 100 watts of inaudible transients slamming in the driver? Any thoughts?
 

pmac11

Country Gent
Mar 4, 2018
3,664
Toronto, Ontario
HC, what you are saying makes absolute sense to me. As long as we are using RMS ratings, a watt is a watt.

But.

The Fender Tonemaster Deluxe uses a 100-watt digital amp and Fender states that this 100-watt amp is used to make the TM as loud as its 22-watt tube counterpart - which it does. I have a few DRs and Fender was bang on - the TM is as loud as a tube DR - no louder in spite of the large difference in RMS rating.

Riddle two.

A speaker translates wattage into volume (SPL.) I tried a number of speakers in the TM that worked well in other DRs. Every one of these speakers handled the TM volume output with ease. The speaker I settled with was the Jensen C12Q, a 35 watt speaker yet it doesn't seem to be under any stress in the TM nor is it any louder than it was in a tube DR despite the TM pushing out 100 watts RMS.

Why would that be? Since players buy the DRs based on a moderate output level I cannot imagine a 100-watt power level would be a sales feature. In fact, Fender even downplays it by stating they did this to make the volume level about the same as a tube DR. And it is with all the speakers I tested.

Since the speaker's job is to turn RMS wattage into sound pressure wouldn't the volume be several DB louder than in a tube-powered DR? I ask, because it's not, it's about the same.

With the C12Q - an inefficient yet great-sounding speaker - my volume level is about the same as a good Princeton Reverb.

I am confused. Are there 100 watts of inaudible transients slamming in the driver? Any thoughts?

Have you actually measured the wattage output of each amp? And are identical speakers being compared? A low wattage amp into a high efficiency speaker may well be the same volume as a high wattage amp with a low efficiency speaker.
 

Randy99CL

Country Gent
Feb 17, 2020
2,186
Albuquerque
Talking about wattage ratings...
I've been an audiophile since the late '60s.
In the early '80s I was working sales at a local audio dealer and most of their business was in car stereo, this was before the days of ear-bleeding systems.
We got in a cheap sub amp that was a box probably four inches square and an inch thick. 2000 Watts was painted in big letters on the top, lol. There were no standards that unwilling companies had to abide by so I joked that they hooked it up to a giant input signal, put a meter on it and measured the output at the millisecond just before it blew up.
 


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