Amp GAS here also

Discussion in 'Ampage Area' started by MrWookiee, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. Ricochet

    Ricochet Senior Gretsch-Talker

    Nov 13, 2009
    Monkey Island
    You’ll even get that volume difference between tube amps. Not sure why.
     
  2. hcsterg

    hcsterg Friend of Fred

    Feb 13, 2012
    France
    Well, it's a nonsense @Jerzey Bob.

    Sorry to say that : it's a legend that has no scientifical basis, no measurement protocol. It exactly like considering that 1kg of feather is lighter than one 1kg of lead... Or 250HP from a Chevrolet is higher than 250HP from a Ford : Yes, we all know that a 250HP V8 equals 125HP 8-in-line... o_O:D

    A Watt is a Watt, no matter the technology : it's measurable and indisputable, with a protocol :

    Prms (W) = Urms² (VAC)/Rload (Ohms)

    Usually taken at sine wave of a given frequency, at onset of clipping checked on an oscilloscope screen (enough criteria for guitar amps), and for a given Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) percentage for Hi-Fi.

    Onset of clipping measurement as described above means "pure clean tone upper limit" when played by a guitar.

    Now guitar players believe what they wants to believe - and more than that - amp brands quote their amp power output how they want... o_O

    Fender usually quite often specified a RMS power output on a resistive load at onset of clipping, for a THD at 5% for 400 or 1KHz.

    Check a SF, BF or RI Fender Princeton Reverb using that measurement procedure, and you will find 12 to 15W rms, usually around 14W rms at onset of clipping. That's what the PR is specified for by Fender.

    Do it on a SF BlackFace or SF 100-watters Twin-Reverb, and you find circa 80-85Wrms.

    Check a Marshal Vintage Modern 2x12" 2266 with 2xKT66, announced at 50Wrms : you measure 25Wrms. :eek:

    Check a ENGL Screamer 50, also announced at 50Wrms : you barely reach 35Wrms.

    Check a Marshall 18W 1974X : it measures 10Wrms at onset of clipping, AND 18W true rms at full clipping (sine wave in, square wave out). :confused:

    Check a Fender Bassman 6G6-B head from circa 1964 : it's 42-43Wrms, same for a BF/SF Super and Pro Reverb, all announced at 45Wrms.

    My Boogie MKIIA, when supplied 240V on 220V at the selector - and biased "hot" in order to have the announced 100W, reaches not more than 92-95Wrms. Otherwise, it delivers 75-80Wrms.

    My Solid-state Peavey Special 130 is specified 130W/4ohms and reaches 160Wrms at onset of clipping when I measure it.
    upload_2021-4-30_12-45-47.png

    OK - I stop ! :D

    Trust me : never 100W solid-state equals 50W tubes, not even roughly... :confused:

    Again, It's me :D, and you believe what or who you want... OK ? ;)

    A+!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  3. Jerzey Bob

    Jerzey Bob Gretschie

    417
    Apr 3, 2021
    North Jersey
    Ok, something I've always heard, just tryin' to help a guy out, not write a thesis :)
     
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  4. hcsterg

    hcsterg Friend of Fred

    Feb 13, 2012
    France
    Sure ! I indeed know that you are not the author of that "Great Magic Tube Tale"... ;)

    Besides that, I do not know when or where this nonsense power ratio of 2:1 - even 3:1 - comes from, but obviously from people who lacks basic knowledge of electricity :rolleyes:, and forgot to make some measurements with a serious protocol to check the truth... Nothing to do with any thesis, really ! :D

    It's just the result of another so-called, widely spreaded "Orange and Apples" comparisons... :)

    A+!
     
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  5. MrWookiee

    MrWookiee Synchromatic

    689
    Jun 17, 2020
    SoCal, USA
    Man, the BluesCube Hot looks great! But so do the Vox offerings, and the BassBreaker and Pro Junior. Probably couldn't go wrong with the Mustang (esp. for the price!), either. And the little 20W Peavey lunchbox heads are intriguing. (Haven't forgotten Supro either.) Whew!! Auntie Em, Uncle Henry, Toto! It's a twister, it's a twister...
     
  6. MrWookiee

    MrWookiee Synchromatic

    689
    Jun 17, 2020
    SoCal, USA
    Maybe it started as 'perceived' power differences when folks heard differences in headroom? Just speculating, as I'm clearly an amp n00b. o_O
     
  7. hcsterg

    hcsterg Friend of Fred

    Feb 13, 2012
    France
    Well yes @MrWookiee : as long as these folks believe their ears but do not establish new rules in Electricity without any serious assesment, that's fine... :)

    My purpose was only to recall - for the sake of Science - that 1W is 1W, not the half or the double, and fight against this preconceived idea.

    It's a long debate without end... OK, my bad :oops:... So Let's stop it here ! ;)

    A+!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  8. Sid Nitzerglobin

    Sid Nitzerglobin Country Gent

    Jun 8, 2015
    fROMOHIO
    I can heartily endorse the Blackstar Studio 10 KT88. Great sounds & very dynamic. Only downsides are weight & it's not the quietest amp I've had (but far from the noisiest too).

    It's a pretty loud single ended 10W but sounds great down at conversational volume as well. I haven't had the opportunity to try it w/ a drummer yet but my impression is w/ an additional high efficiency cab it might keep up for some if the drummer has decent dynamic control.

    That Supro Delta King 12" has impressed me pretty much on the few occasions I've plugged into them as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  9. Bertotti

    Bertotti Friend of Fred

    Jul 20, 2017
    South Dakota
    I bought one of these chassis only. Plenty reasonable price that way and sounds great.
    Winfield
     
  10. hcsterg

    hcsterg Friend of Fred

    Feb 13, 2012
    France
    If you think about HV supply hum, @Sid Nitzerglobin, chances is that it can be eradicated by the addition of a choke at the start the B+ voltage supply, maybe with an extra filter capacitor.

    I did this on my little Supro 1605R, and on several Marshall Class5 with full success... ;)

    Below a C5 chassis awaiting Hammond 157M (8H 100mA 250) substitution in lieu of the factory 220R 5W wirewound HV filter resistor :

    [​IMG]

    A+!
     
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  11. AZBrahma

    AZBrahma Gretschie

    281
    Dec 18, 2020
    Arizona
    Speaker efficiency. If you take a speaker with 95 db sensitivity, and replace it with a speaker of 102 db sensitivity, things are going to sound a LOT louder.
     
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  12. Ricochet

    Ricochet Senior Gretsch-Talker

    Nov 13, 2009
    Monkey Island
    No, using the same cab…(and the same Ohmage speaker out ;))

    It’s almost like manufacturers attribute wattage to an amp arbitrarily or based on power tubes.
     
  13. AZBrahma

    AZBrahma Gretschie

    281
    Dec 18, 2020
    Arizona
    Next in line then is probably differing EQ curves - more upper and midrange mids (sounds weird saying that), the higher the perceived volume. Outside of that, who knows. That's why a cranked AC30 will knock your junk in the dirt, but a BF Fender won't knock you over until much higher on the wattage ladder. If that's not the reason, then it's all like, science and stuff. :D
     
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  14. Sid Nitzerglobin

    Sid Nitzerglobin Country Gent

    Jun 8, 2015
    fROMOHIO
    Yeah, in my view advertised wattage is not a good metric to use to accurately gauge the SPL you can squeeze out of an amp while it's producing the sounds you want it to. IMO as a guitar player the watts aren't really the important part, it's the ability to produce sounds you like at the volume level you need/want.

    I've experienced plenty of variance in maximum output between amps of the same advertised wattage using the same cabs as well; tube vs. SS, tube vs. tube, & SS vs. SS. The most empirical I've ever got was monitoring signal levels between different amps at full bore plugged into the same cab w/ the same mic in the same placement & the results seemed to support what my ears were telling me pretty consistently. I'm certainly no electrical engineer though...
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  15. Henry

    Henry I Bleed Orange

    Apr 9, 2014
    Petaluma
    I always get my amps with strings and tuners pre-installed.:p
     
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  16. Ricochet

    Ricochet Senior Gretsch-Talker

    Nov 13, 2009
    Monkey Island
    LOL. You could be on to something there.
    I’m assuming tube bias and big iron plays a part as well.
     
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  17. slickfaster

    slickfaster Country Gent

    Dec 29, 2009
    USA
    EFD4B152-8A62-42CE-86C6-A706B0264621.jpeg E07E8E3E-4110-4C0E-99A4-99C6AF061DC0.jpeg Check Local Craigs or Reverb for a Red*Bear Cub 50. Made for Gibson in Russia circa 98. PTP tube amp, effects loop. Marshall crunch to Fender Cleans.. 400$ zone I got 3 combos n Two Half stacks. Wonderful and rugged rig.. pop in a V30, max master n tickle pre volume Fender Bassman tone. Comes with Celestion 75. That is best for crunch.
    Bedroom to Gig...
     
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  18. Bertotti

    Bertotti Friend of Fred

    Jul 20, 2017
    South Dakota
    Sadly some providers would consider that priority service and charge accordingly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  19. Randy99CL

    Randy99CL Country Gent

    Feb 17, 2020
    Albuquerque
    OK here is what I'm working on.

    The Mustang GTX100 has a 60-sec looper built in. The (included) footswitch gives you selection of any one of 5 presets as long as they are in numerical order (1-5 for example). Once you've selected a preset, in the next mode you can turn on/off any of the 5 effects pedals in that preset.
    L73396000000000-00-2000x2000.jpg
    I am learning the 12-string intro to Hotel California and built a preset for that exact sound. I play enough of the 12-string part that I can loop it while I switch guitars to my Tele.
    The loop continues as I select the next preset, for the Joe Walsh Tele part. Then I have the next preset for his Lead Tele, then two more presets for the rest of the song.

    Same with Gimme Shelter. One preset for the incredible beginning sound then 4 more for other parts.

    And BTW, you can switch banks with the upper left button. If you need more than 5 presets to do one song you hold that button and move up or down to the next bank of 5.
    In between songs you walk up to the amp and spin the knob to get to the bank of presets you need next, or it has bluetooth and you can select with your phone.
    Or you can pick one amp and 5 pedals and play all night, it's up to you.

    I love this new tech. Again, this thing is only 500 bucks. Those guys at Fender are pure genius.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  20. MrWookiee

    MrWookiee Synchromatic

    689
    Jun 17, 2020
    SoCal, USA
    At the risk of being accused of GASus Interruptus I must tell you about today's epiphany. After watching a bunch of videos and trolling Reverb (this is my Friday off) I started my daily practice. Since the grandkids are at pre-school I used my "hokey" Blackstar Fly 3 instead of the usual Blackstar AP2-Fly-G headphone amp (which seems like a rebranded Vox) only this time I played around more with the gain, ISF, etc., based on things I saw in the demo videos. Wow, I was amazed to discover that the amp is actually the real deal (within its limits, of course)! Headphones plugged into the Fly 3 sound much better than the headphone amp, as well. It turns out that the amp was suffering from a bad case of defective user disease, not from an inherent "meh"-ness.
    So... I still want to pick up a "real" amp sometime but my GAS has been sated for the time being. I've made a list of the amps all of you suggested and will be sure to at least attempt to sample each of them in person (may not be able to find the Red Bear though) before I buy. MsWookiee, the bean counter, thanks each and every one of you for your sage advice, as well! I appreciate you all, thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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