Pops
Synchromatic
“All lies and jest
Still a man hears
What he wants to hear
And disregards the rest…”
Mmmmm hmmmmm
Still a man hears
What he wants to hear
And disregards the rest…”
Mmmmm hmmmmm
A Guitar Maker Speaks the Truth
- Thread starter drmilktruck
- Start date
nickurso
Gretschified
He made an actual guitar out of it. I thought about doing that. Mine is almost finished and this is my test run. I’ll do another with a better piece of wood
Pops
Synchromatic
Have you seen the 3-string shovel? Wild.
blueruins
Friend of Fred
That's pretty cool.
It's also why blueruins has a rule to always pass on a guitar when the person doing the demo breaks out a slide
. #lifehack
When I think of tone woods, and their impact on guitar tone, I do agree that tone woods do have an impact on acoustic guitars, especially if they are solid body. I have 2 solid body acoustics - one with Engleman spruce top with Indian rosewood back and sides, and the other has a Sitka spruce top with Mahagony back and sides., and their tone difference is not in any doubt. But then, we would also have to take into account the way the top is braced, and how the braces are shaped. So tone woods would only be one piece of the sonic puzzle. The question still becomes, how much?
Electrics are different in that they generally have (today anyway) a bit thicker finish, with polyurethane being common, so does that take most of the tone wood effect out of the equation? True, not every guitar has a thick finish, as well are something other than poly. Much of the debate has already happened here, so I thought I'd add one more thing to the conversation.
Is it possible that when we see a guitar that is visually exciting us, and if tone is in the fingers, could it be that we play it differently? I'm thinking of the excitement issue here. And what if we add that the guitar in not only visually exciting, but also has a great feel. How do we respond in the way we play it? I do know that I can be inspired by a guitar, so there is that, for me.
Electrics are different in that they generally have (today anyway) a bit thicker finish, with polyurethane being common, so does that take most of the tone wood effect out of the equation? True, not every guitar has a thick finish, as well are something other than poly. Much of the debate has already happened here, so I thought I'd add one more thing to the conversation.
Is it possible that when we see a guitar that is visually exciting us, and if tone is in the fingers, could it be that we play it differently? I'm thinking of the excitement issue here. And what if we add that the guitar in not only visually exciting, but also has a great feel. How do we respond in the way we play it? I do know that I can be inspired by a guitar, so there is that, for me.
There are endless variables, and most certainly, we can be inspired by certain instruments.
We could invert the problem; why do I pick a certain guitar one day, and a different guitar the next? Tonight, I played my 6120 DC, a couple of days ago, I played my Jaguar, and a few days before that, I played a Tele Thinline; why did I choose those particular guitars on those particular days?
In my case, I would say that feel is a. If part of it. All three of the guitars I mentioned sound good, but certainly different from one another, but the difference in feel is quite significant. For example, tonight I wanted to do some Chet material, and the feel of a Gretsch is a good match, while the very short scale on the Jaguar can be a bit cramped for fingerstyle. That’s just one criteria.
Sometimes the beauty of a certain guitar influences my choice. My G6119-1959 with its transparent red finish is quite striking, when one is close enough to see the woodgrain. Appearances have an effect on our thinking.
Falconetti
Synchromatic
If you believe you can hear the difference between different tone woods used in the construction of solid body electric guitars then you can. The problem only arises when you try to convince someone else that you can. FWIW I can always smell when it’s Thursday but that’s a whole new thread.
I totally agree. Pickups, pickup height, electronics. Anything else is so small, if it exists at all.
If the pickup height is 10th of a mm different, the sound is audibly different. Also, if you have same model of a pickup made let's say in 2019 and 2022, are they going to sound 100% the same? Probably often not. Manufacturing process may have changed slightly or the magnets have a different supplier with slight change etc.
If you have the three I mention above absolutely the same, I seriously doubt anybody can hear a difference between two different tone woods. But that's just me. If you can, all credit to you.
The original article didn’t say that there weren’t differences, it just suggested that these differences don’t matter all that much, and I see his point.
When you walk into a new venue to play a gig, you have absolutely no idea what the acoustic character of the room will be. One thing that is a certainty, is that it‘a going to be different than the sound of playing in a living room. The other certainty is that you only have a limited amount of time to deal with adapting to the venue, because once it’s time to begin playing, you have to get the show on the road and there’s not much you can do. In that situation, you set the tone of you amp, and go for it.
IMHO, tone chasing has a low yield of results, compared to the effort and money expended. My approach is to find what the guitar has to offer, tweak the tone at the amp to remove harshness, and use the pickup switch to select between the basic sounds of the guitar. Since I started using the Blossom Point, it’s gotten a lot easier to avoid harshness.
But from the audience’s perspective, all they hear is a guitar. If it’s too bright, they won’t like it. If it’s too dark, it will sound muffled, but beyond that, the audience doesn’t care.
I have several basic sounds: Jazz, Soft Rock, Blues, Surf, Chet, Country-Lead, Bright Surf. There is a fair degree of overlap in these sounds; the boundaries are quite flexible, but that’s the basic spectrum. Jazz is the neck pickup, and moderate reverb. Soft Rock, Blues, Surf and Chet are probably both pickups (depending upon the guitar), but different reverbs: Soft Rock and Blues use plate reverb, the Chet sound uses hall reverb has some delay, and the Surf uses spring reverb and possibly tremolo. These are all just a click away, on my pedalboard. Country-Lead and Bright Surf are definitely bridge pickup, but vary in the reverb used and the absence or presence of tremolo. For me, it’s that simple, and I can make adjustments on the fly, to adapt to the song.
Now, guitar choice, tone wood choice, etc. stIll exist, but even with the variety of guitars I own, I can choose any steel string electric in my collection and successfully play a gig.
Just a real-life example:
I used to own two faded-worn-cherry Flying Vs.
The older one was from the first batch of fwc Flying Vs and had an ebony board (with crescent moon inlays). The other one was identical but with a rosewood board.
Compared side by side the one with the ebony board had more hights and sounded considerably more aggressive and open. You yould easily hear it when played clean or with a little bit of crunch.
Hearing a difference in high-gain-mode wasn`t possible (with my pair of ears) to be honest.
I used to own two faded-worn-cherry Flying Vs.
The older one was from the first batch of fwc Flying Vs and had an ebony board (with crescent moon inlays). The other one was identical but with a rosewood board.
Compared side by side the one with the ebony board had more hights and sounded considerably more aggressive and open. You yould easily hear it when played clean or with a little bit of crunch.
Hearing a difference in high-gain-mode wasn`t possible (with my pair of ears) to be honest.
blueruins
Friend of Fred
If we’re talking from the audience perspective then splitting these sorts of hairs are pointless.
To my way of thinking these differences are important to a player for the response they are looking for to inspire them. These are minuscule properties that would totally be lost on most listeners.
I know a recording violinist who I listen to; I commented on the slightest sweetness in tone that I heard over previous recordings, it was honestly so slight that it could have just as easily been the microphone placement. But he replied that he had acquired a Stradivarius for the session.
If I had to place a percentage on the tonal difference it would be less than 5%. Barely perceptible. I was really inquiring because I wanted to know what the engineer was doing differently.
To my way of thinking these differences are important to a player for the response they are looking for to inspire them. These are minuscule properties that would totally be lost on most listeners.
I know a recording violinist who I listen to; I commented on the slightest sweetness in tone that I heard over previous recordings, it was honestly so slight that it could have just as easily been the microphone placement. But he replied that he had acquired a Stradivarius for the session.
If I had to place a percentage on the tonal difference it would be less than 5%. Barely perceptible. I was really inquiring because I wanted to know what the engineer was doing differently.
Chet Harrison
Gretschie
I often say “everything matters and nothing matters.”
Teledriver
Country Gent
Ever been in a room full of unplugged electric guitars, or in a guitar store (full of guitars, obviously) and hit a certain note and they all (or most of them) start to ring/resonate along with that note?
It's neat if/when it happens.
I think that says something. Wood, and all matter actually, has a frequency that is part of it's makeup. Find the right frequency and you can shatter that wine glass, for example.
To me, it means there must be a return vibration from a strummed string, coming from all things present- nut and saddle, frets (if a fretted note), tuners and headstock/neck and body. I think it is all a loop, the pickups just happen to be where the most vibration happens- under the string.
For an electrified guitar does this mean the wood species for neck and body matter? Does the chemical composition and thickness of the finish matter? Probably not that any average human ear could detect, but I would believe it all has a place in the end result, if for nothing else than how we play it, even if we have no idea what woods are being used. (I've never played a plastic or metal guitar, so I'm only talking about wood guitars here)
FWIW- Some guitars I've played sounded terrible, but the more I played them the better they sounded. I was playing them differently to get what I wanted out of them. This reinforces tone-woods being negligible for electrics, to me at least. It reinforces that tone is in the fingers.
It's neat if/when it happens.
I think that says something. Wood, and all matter actually, has a frequency that is part of it's makeup. Find the right frequency and you can shatter that wine glass, for example.
To me, it means there must be a return vibration from a strummed string, coming from all things present- nut and saddle, frets (if a fretted note), tuners and headstock/neck and body. I think it is all a loop, the pickups just happen to be where the most vibration happens- under the string.
For an electrified guitar does this mean the wood species for neck and body matter? Does the chemical composition and thickness of the finish matter? Probably not that any average human ear could detect, but I would believe it all has a place in the end result, if for nothing else than how we play it, even if we have no idea what woods are being used. (I've never played a plastic or metal guitar, so I'm only talking about wood guitars here)
FWIW- Some guitars I've played sounded terrible, but the more I played them the better they sounded. I was playing them differently to get what I wanted out of them. This reinforces tone-woods being negligible for electrics, to me at least. It reinforces that tone is in the fingers.
Fairlane Blue
Gretschie
Yes - the finish is absolutely the best way to decide what sound it has. And so does the taste!!
I think it’s a matter of how much something matters.
If a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing, does that cause a hurricane in the Atlantic? If the butterfly were the only force acting upon the atmosphere, it might have some effect, but there are many other forces in play, and any effect the butterfly could create would be overwhelmed by greater forces that exist. Beyond that, the force of the butterfly’s flapping wings would dissipate abruptly as that force was distributed over a larger area.
The wood in my guitars, as with all wood, has its quirks. These have some minuscule effect on the sound produced, but overall, they are the equivalent of a butterfly flapping its wings, assuming that the wood is basically sound, and not cracked, etc.
Another illustration, would be whether spending a penny would have an effect upon my finances. In a very strict sense, yes, it does, but in a logical, real-world sense, it has no effect at all. My paycheck provides enough pennies that it overwhelms the effect of spending one penny and makes it inconsequential. Everything matters, and nothing matters.
As I see the point of the article, the sound of the pickups overwhelms just about everything else. Wood effects resonance and sustain, but even that is a drop in the bucket compared to the fury of the pickup output.
I looked at every transparent and burst finish Warmoth offered, before selecting this one. It’s about the best ‘burst I’ve ever seen.Yes indeed : it's a very nice color !
A+!
Bingo! We, the players, are a huge variable In the equation.
You are right. Basically all these little details are part of the guitarist`s enjoyment and inspiration. The audience will never be able to hear a difference.
It's like the lucky underpants some wear to every gig.
Last edited:
Bertotti
Gretschified
I haven’t even read through this whole thread. Naturally every part of an instrument adds or subtracts from the tone, solid hollow, carved, string, wind, percussive etc. the question is how well the luthier can utilize the wood and work with its o hereby properties.
Who decided what A or AA or AAA or even AAAA wood is? The market to me that’s obvious. Now will I grab a piece of soft wood sponge and try to make it a top? Heck no, keeping probably not. If I found a piece of hardwood so hard it was almost brittle would I use it for sides probably not. Is there a chance these woods can be used, yes! But unless you are learning and want to experiment for the sake of learning then a luthier probably won’t use them.
Ask yourself why, now for me it would be because it takes time and expertise to make an exceptional instrument and like a recipe once you get it right you keep following it. There is a bit of work in a solid body and a heck of a lot work on a carved top and back instrument. So what? Builders will by what they know works for them and what will sell. Players buy what looks good sounds good and hits the tick marks, present company the exception sometimes I buy in pure gut instinct but that’s another thread, my point is what a lot that isn’t use will work and work very well but it isn’t what the current market wants. Is there some marketing hype? Absolutely find a nice tight grained spruce suitable dried nice tap tone when you pick it up proper grain orientation and you will have a nice piece. How tight or irregular the grain really is quite flexible look at some old instruments with large and irregular annual growth rings still playing fine and sounding great.
it wasn’t that far back that figured wood was looked down on in instruments because of the added complexity of working with the wild grain and the thought they were less stable because of the wild grain.
Ok off my soap box, build a couple instruments and see what you can get away with you will be surprised. If I had the cash I would buy a couple dozen tops from way up high in the mountains in eastern Europe! It has a history of working well. I still have a pice of reclaimed for a lake curly redwood that is so light and resonant but I haven’t attempted to use it because I don’t trust my level of knowledge of soil in caring it yet. I posted it here years ago and I still don’t feel ready. The luthiers talents and woods all make a difference marketing adds cost and direction and the market itself dictates a lot of choices.
Go build something musical maybe a small marimba and see how different wood react or a thumb drum a bit less involved but different woods box size and tines all make difference have fun play what you like. Don’t let looks dictate how you think an instrument will sound. My 1911 bowlback VEGA mandolin is the most basic plain Jane instrument but sounds oh so sweet.
Who decided what A or AA or AAA or even AAAA wood is? The market to me that’s obvious. Now will I grab a piece of soft wood sponge and try to make it a top? Heck no, keeping probably not. If I found a piece of hardwood so hard it was almost brittle would I use it for sides probably not. Is there a chance these woods can be used, yes! But unless you are learning and want to experiment for the sake of learning then a luthier probably won’t use them.
Ask yourself why, now for me it would be because it takes time and expertise to make an exceptional instrument and like a recipe once you get it right you keep following it. There is a bit of work in a solid body and a heck of a lot work on a carved top and back instrument. So what? Builders will by what they know works for them and what will sell. Players buy what looks good sounds good and hits the tick marks, present company the exception sometimes I buy in pure gut instinct but that’s another thread, my point is what a lot that isn’t use will work and work very well but it isn’t what the current market wants. Is there some marketing hype? Absolutely find a nice tight grained spruce suitable dried nice tap tone when you pick it up proper grain orientation and you will have a nice piece. How tight or irregular the grain really is quite flexible look at some old instruments with large and irregular annual growth rings still playing fine and sounding great.
it wasn’t that far back that figured wood was looked down on in instruments because of the added complexity of working with the wild grain and the thought they were less stable because of the wild grain.
Ok off my soap box, build a couple instruments and see what you can get away with you will be surprised. If I had the cash I would buy a couple dozen tops from way up high in the mountains in eastern Europe! It has a history of working well. I still have a pice of reclaimed for a lake curly redwood that is so light and resonant but I haven’t attempted to use it because I don’t trust my level of knowledge of soil in caring it yet. I posted it here years ago and I still don’t feel ready. The luthiers talents and woods all make a difference marketing adds cost and direction and the market itself dictates a lot of choices.
Go build something musical maybe a small marimba and see how different wood react or a thumb drum a bit less involved but different woods box size and tines all make difference have fun play what you like. Don’t let looks dictate how you think an instrument will sound. My 1911 bowlback VEGA mandolin is the most basic plain Jane instrument but sounds oh so sweet.
IDK, I've heard WAY too many pros I highly respect disagree. The wood DOES matter, even on a solid body. I love Joel's column he does in Premier Guitar, but if he says wood does not change the tone in an electric instrument, I'll have to disagree... again, based on way too many pro players AND BUILDERS that I highly respect.
In all honestly, I can't form a first-person opinion (and I doubt if anyone here can), because to do that you'd have to build 2 guitars, with the the same woods from the same tree, with the necks and bodies being the same weight, with identical parts. That's the only way to run the experiment.
I'll also leave you with this nugget:
[some] musicians DO develop a "sixth sense" making them very aware of immensely subtle sonic anomalies... some will spend considerable effort to resolve something that "abrades" their preferences, while others could care less....
I've known professionals in various fields over the years, Pro Golfers, Race Drivers, and a guitarist or two . . and one common denominator is their symbiotic interface with their "tools of the trade"... they detect variances that exist for most of us only in Science Fiction....
- Masterbuilder Ron Kirn
In all honestly, I can't form a first-person opinion (and I doubt if anyone here can), because to do that you'd have to build 2 guitars, with the the same woods from the same tree, with the necks and bodies being the same weight, with identical parts. That's the only way to run the experiment.
I'll also leave you with this nugget:
[some] musicians DO develop a "sixth sense" making them very aware of immensely subtle sonic anomalies... some will spend considerable effort to resolve something that "abrades" their preferences, while others could care less....
I've known professionals in various fields over the years, Pro Golfers, Race Drivers, and a guitarist or two . . and one common denominator is their symbiotic interface with their "tools of the trade"... they detect variances that exist for most of us only in Science Fiction....
- Masterbuilder Ron Kirn
Bertotti
Gretschified
Yep it all makes a difference. Like you said some notice some don’t.
