A deal is a deal, some people just don't honor a hand shake deal

Discussion in 'Fred's Barcalounge' started by Stefan87, May 3, 2021.

  1. Waxhead

    Waxhead Country Gent

    Aug 30, 2014
    Australia
    Why do I suppose this is so?

    My theory is that lying, deceiving,cheating has become so common place in all walks of life in the 2000's that many Aussies (and I only speak for here) have become slowly de-sensitised to it. And they're not taught the importance of honesty, integrity and ethical conduct by parents or role models.

    They see their parents lying, deceiving, cheating, stealing routinely.
    They see everyone on TV doing it, most of their friends doing it, corrupt lying politicians, pedophile priests, their sports heroes on performance enhancing drugs, corporate greed and corruption etc etc. Everywhere they look, everyday.

    So after years of de-sensitisation, and no role models, it becomes normal for them and they fail to see the link to self-respect. Just my theory :D
     
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  2. Stefan87

    Stefan87 Country Gent

    May 20, 2019
    Brisbane, Australia
    I totally agree that there is an endless amount of people trying to shaft sellers and for anyone to always be warry when selling due to this, as mentioned in anther response everything was told up front and I was completely transparent with everything, I didn't push any low ball offers just politely asked a question, from what he said to me all was good, he was happy and agreed to everything, I checked numerous times before leaving and said if anything was a problem I can work with it but all was good.

    Never the less it just wasn't meant to be, not saying the seller was a horrible person or anything like that, I just feel that given everything the moral thing to do was to at least give me a call/message regarding the deal that we made which was a deal and was a verbal contract and give me a shot to advance my offer if someone else came in, if he didn't agree with something or he said to me he'd like to see how things go over the weekend or wanted the cash up front and I couldn't accommodate then I would've respectively passed on.

    All is good though, these things happen.

    I will say that I do agree that the youth of today is exposed to a lot more these days, and I do feel that what makes it's way into the publics viewing is very different to what was shown 10 years ago.
     
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  3. Waxhead

    Waxhead Country Gent

    Aug 30, 2014
    Australia
    Yes at very least this seller should have.....

    a) accepted your offer of a deposit.
    b) taken item off sale
    c) if another better offer was honestly rec'd then called you, been upfront and given you chance to out bid the other guy.

    In fact if he was just a greedy sod with no ethics then he did a stupid thing in selling to the other guy without giving you a chance to better it.

    But the 2 guys who stuffed me around with the TA-15 did the exact same dumb thing :)
     
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  4. Stefan87

    Stefan87 Country Gent

    May 20, 2019
    Brisbane, Australia
    It's all good though, I had my vent, I'm over it now lol :D

    At least it worked out for you in the end and you got a good deal on the one you bought.
     
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  5. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Gretschie

    289
    Jan 11, 2019
    Wokingham
    The flip side of this: I accepted an offer for a pedal board I was selling on Gumtree (similar to your Craigslist I believe), the guy then came up with various excuses as to when he could collect it. Turns out he lived 200-300 miles away and wasn't planing on 'being in the area' for some time, which he didn't mention when we first agreed he could have it for the price if it was collected. He wasn't prepared to pay for postage and had already made a lower offer than asking since he could collect. I missed out on other sales because I told them it was sold; they were offers of the same amount as his and more local too...more fool me.

    I ended up selling to someone else for 25% less in the end as it dragged on so long I had to re-advertise it. He never did contact me to arrange collection, so I didn't have the 'fun' of telling him I'd sold it to someone else. I didn't feel the need to contact him (again!) to say someone else had made me an offer and was taking it, partly because they happened to be at my house buying something else anyway. By the time he might have replied my buyer would have left too.

    I once did get a deposit off someone when selling an old car for spares. He came back to collect it a few days later and then changed his mind because he couldn't get it to start (the listed original fault and why it was sold as spares!). I ended up giving him his deposit back because it wasn't worth the hassle of any reprisals as he seemed a nasty piece of work, threatening to take parts off the car to the value of his deposit, etc.

    Bottom line: Someone turns up to buy from me, then I expect them to have cash or some means to transfer payment then and there, otherwise it's still on the market. Maybe this guy should have said as much rather than some 'handshake' deal (which is worth nothing of course, but gets you out of his house and he has you as an option now if nothing better comes along). I don't take deposits either after that last incident (which was well over 20 years ago FWIW, so no Rose coloured glasses from me about 'the old days' being better).

    I've had a lot of very pleasant experience buying and selling things over the years too, but I base my expectations on the above now and I am pleasantly surprised if the experience exceeds that level.
     
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  6. amp360

    amp360 Gretschie

    498
    Oct 21, 2012
    Maryland
    Was his name Nathan Brown by any chance?
     
  7. Sabato

    Sabato Country Gent

    Mar 22, 2019
    Massachusetts
    I'd like to think that historically, this sort of societal devolution is not sustainable, although I couldn't know where the "bottom" may be. On a side-note, my actual Italian surname, literally the people from the town of my surname, is the root of the word "charlatan", which I find amusing to no end. Seems that the people from that town were notorious for selling miracle cure medications of no real value.
     
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  8. AZBrahma

    AZBrahma Gretschie

    223
    Dec 18, 2020
    Arizona
    I'm in the middle on this one. I had something eerily similar last week that puts the other shoe on my foot.

    I sold a car last week, an 15-year-old high mileage Toyota that was in good shape and insanely reliable. Cars like this one are a hot ticket and go quickly. Blue book was $4112, I listed for $4000. You guys may know what's going on with used car sales in the US right now, people are getting over blue book. Guy contacted me immediately, lived in my town and said he was ready to buy for his son. Shows up a short time later, drives it, then proceeds to beat me up on price. I somewhat reluctantly agree on a price, 12% lower than listed ($3500), then tells me he'll arrange funds with his bank and contact me the next day to complete the transaction. I guess that was his idea of 'ready to buy', which I'm on the fence whether that fits the definition.

    That night I get called by someone who wants it straight away, barring any egregious misrepresentation or problem (which I would never do) . Says they can cut a cashier's check right then for the full amount and send me a photo of it before they drive up so I know they aren't wasting my time. They bought themselves a great little Toyota that day for the full asking price, which it was worth.

    I tend to think of myself as a Golden Rule kinda guy, and much of my actions in life reflect this. But here, I dunno. Was I a doosh and broke the Golden Rule, or was I just being smart and prepared by taking the first cash-in-hand offer? The fact that I'm not sure says something, I'm just not sure what. Sometimes it isn't so simple.
     
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  9. DennisC

    DennisC Country Gent

    Age:
    38
    May 11, 2017
    Germany
    I get out of this, own experiences and others that I have read that there is nothing safer than being honest and open, no matter if buying or selling stuff. Whatever is left out will surface, also it just isn't ok, and whatever is a blatant lie may even imply legal consequences, if one is willing to throw in the effort.

    On the past vs present thing - that stuff was less public 10, 20, 30 years ago. Then, we simply hadn't the means of publishing everything happening to us, the media were slower then, but, in the end ... I still remember older relatives bragging about how you could leave your bike unlocked in the thirties, in germany. Well, nice and all, but having the wrong ancestors could spark worries exceeding the loss of a bike by far, to say the least. Maybe the criminals were too busy committing crimes in state's service or so.

    I actually had a pretty nice story happening to me last year, when I sold a set of pens to Luxemburg, and did everything wrong I could (sent it without insurance or tracking option). I already had refunded the buyer because it apparently got lost somewhere on the way, but three weeks later, it showed up at the buyer's door ... they could have just kept it, or they could have assumed I'd have ripped them off (which I haven't, but how do they know...) earlier, but it all turned out as desired - sometimes, not everything is so messed up.

    And there are things that are better now than they were back then for sure. Like, being laughed at for being a vegetarian by your principal and the like ... I'm pretty grateful I stopped caring about what people think about me pretty early, one of the benefits of changing schools a bit more often than usual ... because, uh, issues...

    Anyway, Gina needs some attention now. That is not to be negotiated, I receive orders. She's the cat, she's in charge.
     
  10. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Gretschie

    289
    Jan 11, 2019
    Wokingham
    No, I'm based in the UK, so it would be a surprise if you knew him.

    Either that or I've missed a joke somewhere...
     
  11. Henry

    Henry I Bleed Orange

    Apr 9, 2014
    Petaluma
    Yep absolutely. As much as people like to view history with rose tinted glasses, the reality is that the history of humanity is one of long run progress, even if we hit hiccups, pretty much by every measure from crime to drug use to war.

    Not that we should relax our efforts to build a more perfect society, but we should acknowledge facts. Doesn't help that most of the history books were written by the small group of people at the top who could romanticize their times while ignoring ugly realities. E.g. blue collar union work in the 50s and 60s paid much better, but those jobs were largely limited to white males.

    It was only in the last 100 years that the life expectancy went over 40 years!
     
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  12. Henry

    Henry I Bleed Orange

    Apr 9, 2014
    Petaluma
    I disagree. and I think you are confusing rhe EXISTENCE of problems and the DISCOVERY of problems..

    Some of the biggest corruption scandals that have recently arisen in Australia (pensions, child abuse in religious institutions, and sexual harassment in government) recently made the news. But all the problems were old, existing problems, and,, I would argue, only in our current times of greater scrutiny were they revealed and, hopefully, addressed. I would take correcting those problems over having more flakey Craigslist sellers!

    Anecdotes are just anecdotes, it is one person's reality. Statistics is everyone's reality.
     
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  13. Waxhead

    Waxhead Country Gent

    Aug 30, 2014
    Australia
    Henry - I'm only talking of my personal experience in Australia plus those of many of my friends.
    And it's not limited to media reports about pollies and priests either.
    This is a tiny shapshot of a person's lived experience.

    If your personal experience in US is different - fine.
    But you're hardly in a good position to judge the Australian reality for most people here :D
     
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  14. Henry

    Henry I Bleed Orange

    Apr 9, 2014
    Petaluma
    Yes, true. Australia could be the exception to humanity making progress. o_O

    Ironically, I probably spent more time and effort buying and selling used stuff in Australia than anywhere else. We spent a year in Sydney and that is how we bought and then sold most of our furniture and housewares. No instruments though.
     
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  15. AZBrahma

    AZBrahma Gretschie

    223
    Dec 18, 2020
    Arizona
    "History is a set of lies agreed upon."
     
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  16. Waxhead

    Waxhead Country Gent

    Aug 30, 2014
    Australia
    Henry in 2 posts I was mainly referring to the historical decline in personel honesty, ethics and integrity of Aussie individuals in all walks of life. Very different matter to overall progress in society on human rights issues. And I wasn't talking about just buying and selling stuff either.

    We're talking about 2 different things :)

    And if you spent a year in Sydney you got a snapshot of society here, not a historical perpective.
    You had no idea what residents were like 10-20 years previous.
    You have no idea how Australia's natural environment, agricultual capability and industrial capacity has degraded in the past 20 years
    And you have no idea how it's changed since you left.

    On the humanity making progress issue, I'd happily have a conversation with you about our planet's present condition, and future outlook, as compared to 20 years ago. While there's been progress in some limited areas of human rights in some countries, the overall outlook for humanity is extremely grim today imo.

    Overall, the world is a much more dangerous and unstable place than it was 20 years ago. Every environmental, health, security and standard of living indicator proves this. And the future outlook for humanity has never been more grim than it is today.

    Our planet's carrying capacity has been massively exceeded by exponential population growth and this increases every day. Demolition of our planetary life support systems increases every day. Rapid climate change has already commenced and we certainly will have a 2 degrees temperature rise by 2050. Most likely it will be 3 degrees by 2080-2100. 3 degrees equals total devastation of planetary systems making life unsuitable for our species and billions of others.

    Just scientific fact. Combined with environmental destruction for human landuse the future outlook is extremely grim and humanity will surely fall into increasing wars, conflict over declining resources, massive social upheaval/dislocation, decline in living standards and chaos as these impacts escalate. That's the legacy our generation leaves our children Henry.

    Happy to chat with you about these issues anytime :D
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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  17. Henry

    Henry I Bleed Orange

    Apr 9, 2014
    Petaluma
    I agree that my personal experience does not give me an idea of the general trend in Australia, in part because of my brief stay, but also because I am a firm believer that personal experiences are statistically insignificant.

    Regarding the environmental issues, yea, we are screwing our children, though no matter how many people say it, I knew few people actually doing anything about it (the song Man in the Mirror comes to mind). But I would argue that the environmental situation is a legacy more than what is happening now. And to put those 2 together, perhaps people like you and me, kinda in between the boomers and the young, feel that previous generations got a free ride and we don't want to pay the price . . .leaving it to the grandkids to pay instead of the kids.
     
  18. Waxhead

    Waxhead Country Gent

    Aug 30, 2014
    Australia
    Like everything in nature it's cumulative impact over many years that does the most damage.
    Yes, it all started in earnest in the industrial revolution and gathered pace thereafter.

    But our generation is the most liable for blame because we've been warned for 30 years by scientists (like myself), the evidence has been everywhere, the outcomes have become clearer every year and.... knowing all this... we only stepped on the accelerator.

    Everything we have done to reduce impacts is too little, too late, like sticking a bandaid on a severed limb while you are cutting off the other one. Everything world leaders allegedly promise today is too little, too late - the science is clear, the evidence becomes clearer every day.

    And we cannot blame politicians either because we collectively voted for them knowing full well they planned to do almost nothing. The majority of people did that cos they cared much more about their our own bank balances next week than about there own childrens future.

    Under 25s today have every right to be extremely angry at our generation.
    We sold their future for a few dollars more and still refuse to do anything significant.
    We will be judged extremely badly by history and we'll deserve every bit of it imo hehehehe :p
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  19. DennisC

    DennisC Country Gent

    Age:
    38
    May 11, 2017
    Germany
    ... as far as too little effort goes ... a few years ago, when I was a student working in gasoline engine development, I talked to one of our customer's higher ups I had worked for about what a reduction in fuel consumption is allowed to cost. A twostep-shiftable valve lift on the intake side, in a straight four, fourvalve engine costs roughly 50 € more in production, and, depending on engine and vehicle size and use, allows to have identical performance in every regard at high loads, and up to like 15 % less by dethrottling at very low load, overall about 5 % in consumption while driving in the city, and no impact whatsoever on Autobahn or similar, as everything remains as is then.

    Too expensive. It's 50 € for 5%, so once you spent over 1000 € on gas, you're at a loss. Roughly 700 liters here at the moment, maybe a bit less. A car consuming 7 liters at 100 km (not too bad, realistic for a compact) would be cheaper in total cost of ownership after 10000 km, had it that feature. One consuming more (likely with a larger engine that benefits more from dethrottling, but also drinks more anyway - cylinder deactivation, roughly with the same hardware, is a better choice in these, ... anyway...) will even earlier reach that point, and this doesn't take into account that there are other means to reduce consumption that go very well with valvetrain shenenigans.

    Too expensive. 50 € for 5%.

    This doesn't even change any basics, doesn't require special fuel that is free of sulfur even in traces or anything making stuff more complicated. All the hardware needed can be bought from various known and reliable suppliers like Mahle, Delphi, INA and so on, they make millions of these every year anyway, and some engines are equipped with that feature, for that reason, and with results that don't disappoint.

    But assuming that 5 % less fuel needed, accomplished by a reliable and known method, with reliable and welltested parts, with low risk of any additional hassle to the manufacturer like increase of warranty cases or so, is not worth 50 €?

    I know why I refused any economy-related stuff when I was a student. I didn't wanna learn made-up rules that apply to made-up systems as if they were a law of nature that no one can change. Economy is totally man made, and therefore, man-changable.

    This goes on with more complicated things that may in a smart combination exceed the ratio of lowering of consumption vs cost of manufacturing, but usually, this ratio gets worse when the machine in question is getting better or has more of the known features ... whatever has a better ratio is common practice by now anyway, and there are other things to take into account, like variants to provide different amounts of power out of very similar engines (in earlier times, usually the displacement was changed, nowadays it is more likely the boost system along with compression ratio, valvetrain stuff, ...), but the bottom line of "50 € is too much for 5%" tells a lot. Very low effort for the customer - pay 50 € more on a new car. Not a groundbreaking, but reasonable result, 5 % less fuel burned - not enough?

    If the cost of ownership is already decreased by the time of the first oil change, I cannot get my head around anyone opposing the integration of said feature for it being too expensive. And also - I like technology, I like especially stuff that either is simple yet effective, or complex, but squeezes out every benefit possible. Like, those electric driven compressors that got into fashion lately in higher-priced cars (Audi's V8-Diesel, Daimler's Gasoline Straight-Six, ...). There, the cost seems not to be an issue whatsoever, although neither uses that extra machine in permanent operation, but only to avoid turbo lag. At a lower power (and pressure ratio), they could provide a bit of extra boost, which can be translated into less fuel consumption by a few methods, and yet they add an electric motor, a compressor, some sensors, software, piping, flaps, ... and only use it to avoid lag. The additional weight is totally useless, unless you floor the pedal at low revs, only then is it used.

    I know, gasoline, oil, etc, but the thing is, very cost effective ways to decrease the amount needed, low risk, low complexity, reliable hardware you can just order, proven to last by millions of applications on the road and all given, still are seen as too expensive.

    So, what should we expect once we really have to throw in effort that even might hurt?
     
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  20. Durbanator

    Durbanator Electromatic

    11
    Aug 16, 2016
    UK
    Here's something very frustrating......
    I'm one of those guys that researches to death and then targets exactly what I want. On two separate occasions I have pulled the trigger on guitars on Reverb and agreed to buy, only to be told that the seller decided not to sell after-all and pulled the ad.
    On one of those occasions I even transferred the money by Paypal and the seller changed his mind and then returned the money.
    I raised a support ticket with Reverb but there is only protection for the seller (in case of a pull-out), not for the buyer.
    What's with that??
     
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