Consideration of scale length in relation to compensated bar bridges....

Discussion in 'Technical Side of Things' started by Sid Nitzerglobin, May 14, 2019.

  1. Sid Nitzerglobin

    Sid Nitzerglobin Country Gent

    Jun 8, 2015
    fROMOHIO
    So I'm thinking I'd like to order a couple of bar bridges for 25.5" scale guitars w/ fixed bridge posts (the Club King & Galaxie) in the near future and don't know that I've ever been able to pin down if that should require a different compensation for accurate intonation from the ~24.75" scale that the vast majority of bar bridges seem to be designed for.

    Logically it would seem like it ought to, but I dunno if how valid that logic is in practice. Neither Tru Arc or Compton seem to ask. What say you Gretsch Talkers?

    I guess as follow up, I was thinking I'd like to try Tru Arc for at least one of them. Should I expect the Serpentune style to work for either/both guitars? Both the Galaxie and the Club King have a compensation slant to the bridge post positions.
     
    Jena likes this.
  2. tartanphantom

    tartanphantom Country Gent

    Age:
    55
    Jul 30, 2008
    Murfreesboro, TN
    You're thinking too hard... Mathematically, from a precision standpoint, your theory would be correct. However, in the real world, with an instrument that is already temper-tuned, we're talking about differences in micro millimeters. It's really not going to make a difference.
     
    benjwri, new6659, audept and 2 others like this.
  3. Sid Nitzerglobin

    Sid Nitzerglobin Country Gent

    Jun 8, 2015
    fROMOHIO
    Hehe, it certainly wouldn't be the 1st time I've over thought things ;) If I shouldn't expect the difference in scale length to make a noticeable difference I can feel a bit better about pulling one of my Comptons from a 24.75 (or I guess 24.6)" guitar for testing purposes on these 2 before I place (an) order(s), which would provide some piece of mind for me.

    Thanks for the quick response!
     
    Jena likes this.
  4. G5422T

    G5422T Synchromatic

    556
    May 24, 2012
    usa
    All that I can say Sid, is that I replaced the Tuna-Matic on my Phoenix with a standard 9.5 radius Serpentune. No intonation issues at all.

    20190306_214255.jpg
     
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  5. Ricochet

    Ricochet Gretschified

    Nov 13, 2009
    Monkey Island
    I think there is an online bridge slant calculator somewhere that saves you the trouble of trigonometry.

    If the slant from E to E is correct, the separate intonation between saddles is pretty much negligible.
     
    audept, Jena and Sid Nitzerglobin like this.
  6. Interesting thread for me . . . ya' got me searching. looking at all the wraparound bridge/tailpieces out there - kinda surprising.
    Bottom line is . . . will the intonation compensation (position) of the saddles be different for different bridges ?

    My guess already was . . . "Yeah, they could be." - the height/angles/friction or other changes ?

    So, because I did seek the precision for a lefty conversion, I did order the same Nashville-style Tuneomatic bridge (delivery today, with only different hardware finish, gold-plated) and I'll make the mirror image of the saddle positions.

    I'll post pics in this thread in a couple days or so.

    Heck, I think that (theoretically) different string gauges would even change the saddle compensation positions for precise intonation, wouldn't they ?
     
  7. Ricochet

    Ricochet Gretschified

    Nov 13, 2009
    Monkey Island
    Yes, intonation can slightly differ between different makes. Manufacturers simply (have to) speculate on what string sets will be used most. Case in point would be the position of the g-string which is usually compensated for either a plain or wound string.

    Again, you are correct. The heavier(mass of) the string gauge the more the intonation point moves back.
    Look at some modern basses or 8 or 9 string (with extended low range) guitars and you’ll notice traditional bridge design can’t cover the extreme intonation points, and bridges have evolved into distinct parallelogram shapes. And I haven’t even touched on multi-scale guitars yet. :)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
    Jena and Sid Nitzerglobin like this.
  8. calebaaron666

    calebaaron666 Country Gent

    Aug 15, 2018
    Portland, Maine
    I have tru-arcs on 3 guitars with fixed bridges (2622t, 5129, 5420) and the intonation is great on all 3.
     
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  9. Henry

    Henry Gretschified

    Apr 9, 2014
    Petaluma
    Yeah just do it. People seem to obsess over this a bit much, presumably they never play or listen to acoustic guitars since those have no intonation controls.
     
  10. calebaaron666

    calebaaron666 Country Gent

    Aug 15, 2018
    Portland, Maine
    I’ve just told Tim what Kind of guitar I wanted the bridge for, the specs, and a photo of what the existing bridge looked like.
    All 3 tru-arcs made their respective guitars sound amazing.
    I have 1 aluminum and 2 stainless steel. A stainless steel tru-arc is truly magical.
     
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  11. audept

    audept Senior Gretsch-Talker

    Age:
    71
    Dec 1, 2010
    Sydney, Australia
    And the Titanium and Brass are excellent, also!
    Tru-arc SerpenTunes x 6 004.JPG
     
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  12. Synchro

    Synchro The artist formerly known as: Synchro Staff Member

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tucson
    Admin Post
    I’m with Tartan, on this. In theory, every tiny change makes a difference, but in the real world, it’s not that critical. Keep in mind that the guitar is not that precise of an instrument. Side thrust from your fingering hand can easily have more effect than minute changes in the speaking length of the strings. Buy whatever solid bridge sweetens your coffee and enjoy it.
     
    section2 and Sid Nitzerglobin like this.
  13. calebaaron666

    calebaaron666 Country Gent

    Aug 15, 2018
    Portland, Maine
    Tim of Tru-Arc is an alchemist.
     
    section2 likes this.
  14. Sid Nitzerglobin

    Sid Nitzerglobin Country Gent

    Jun 8, 2015
    fROMOHIO
    Yeah, I don't have so much of a problem w/ fixed intonation as long as it's good enough to not bother me terribly ;) I'd just never tried one of my Comptons on one of my longer scale guitars since I was thinking in theory it would stand a good chance of being enough difference to go past the "good enough" point. 2 out of the 3 fixed post Gretsches I've put a Compton on have well exceeded that threshold in intonation accuracy & in practice the only issue I've had w/ intonation on a bar bridge so far is the lightning style Compton on my ProJet. Kind of a bummer since I wound up w/ some fairly bad tear out on the top installing the M6 post bushings to put it on there :(

    Thanks again for the replies! If I can get motivated I'll snag the copper Compton off of my 5620 and give it a test spin on the Club King tonight (assuming one of the sets of conversion posts I grabbed from the shop this afternoon will work ).
     
    calebaaron666 likes this.
  15. calebaaron666

    calebaaron666 Country Gent

    Aug 15, 2018
    Portland, Maine
    I tried an aluminum Compton on my 5420. It was a few steps above the stock adjustomatic, but it didn’t bring me the magic that my tru-arcs do. I guess I really prefer a rocking bar.
    I sold it to someone who does like it, so at least it’s getting love.
     
  16. Sid Nitzerglobin

    Sid Nitzerglobin Country Gent

    Jun 8, 2015
    fROMOHIO
    Well, the good news is the Compton sounds & feels amazing on the Club King (and looks pretty cool too).
    [​IMG]
    The bad is it's probably ~2.5-3 cents flat starting from the 6th string pitching up to just past my ears' ability to notice an issue by the 3rd string and pretty much perfect according to a PolyTune 2 on the 1st. Unfortunately it's bad enough that full chords above the 12th seem to be fairly painful to me. I'm guessing w/ the low side post sitting 1/16"-3/32" or so further towards the tailpiece it might stand a chance of working out just fine, but I might wind up going w/ a roller on this one...
     
    calebaaron666 likes this.
  17. Synchro

    Synchro The artist formerly known as: Synchro Staff Member

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tucson
    Admin Post
    You could try slightly thicker strings on the bottom three.
     
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