CITES possible changes

Discussion in 'Fred's Barcalounge' started by Merc, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Merc

    Merc Country Gent

    May 6, 2017
    Florida
    I dropped by the other G Forum as I do every blue moon and it sounds like they’re possibly going to update CITES this year. I sure hope so because occasionally I see some rare guitars I’d like over in Japan. This is the first I’ve heard about it. Anyone else have news?

    The below was copied from a posting by Twangman66.

    One of the (many) great things about NAMM and the NAMM Show is the International Coalition Meeting that always takes place the day before the event opens. The trade bodies from all over the world, plus other key interested industry and educational partners meet and share current issues and lobbying efforts to create more music makers and to protect and support the music industry. A special focus was given to the forthcoming CITES meeting in Sri Lanka in May this year. The lobbying coalition on behalf of our industry has led to the proposal to EXEMPT ROSEWOOD INSTRUMENTS from the CITES regulatory control. This formal proposal has already been nominally agreed, but needs the ratification at the meeting in May. Part of this key amendment is from the recognition by the powers that be that musical instruments were (very unfortunately) “collateral damage” in the rosewood restrictions that were chiefly aimed at stopping illegal logging in the furniture industry. Anyway, back to the proposal. The amendment is the result of a Canadian and European proposal to: • Exempt finished musical instruments containing rosewood • Exempt finished musical instrument parts containing rosewood • Exempt finished musical accessories containing rosewood There is also further detail concerning repair and warranty, 10kg limit etc. Nothing is guaranteed in this being formally adopted (or amended), but, if the proposal is implemented, it would have a major impact on the musical instrument industry.​
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2019
    benjwri, cowmoo, Alberta_Slim and 2 others like this.
  2. Synchro

    Synchro The artist formerly known as: Synchro Staff Member

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tucson
    Admin Post
    That would sure simplify matters.
     
    Merc likes this.
  3. Tony65x55

    Tony65x55 Gretschified

    Age:
    63
    Sep 23, 2011
    The 'Shwa, Ontario, Canada
    Excellent news. I hope the ratification happens.
     
  4. Aymara

    Aymara Friend of Fred

    Jul 6, 2013
    Germany
    I think, CITES regarding rosewood as ebony too, should be a matter of the industry (incl. luthiers), but not musicians.

    PS: I don‘t think, that musical instruments are collateral damage. The amount used might be lower as in furniture, but nevertheless it‘s not insignificant.
     
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  5. Merc

    Merc Country Gent

    May 6, 2017
    Florida
    I’m ok with using and looking for newer woods. But it’s a bummer when I look at older instruments produced before CITES took affect. I know I hesitant on importing as it’s risky and more difficult for the seller. Heck, some of those guitars oversea’s were even produced in the US prior to CITES but I have to worry about bringing it back without confiscation.

    If anyone is wondering, yes I know the auto correct changed CITES to CRITES in the title. Auto correct gets annoying when you don’t catch it.
     
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  6. audept

    audept Senior Gretsch-Talker

    Age:
    71
    Dec 1, 2010
    Sydney, Australia
    You should still be able to edit your thread title until 24 hrs after the original post
     
  7. mschafft

    mschafft Gretschie

    433
    Jan 19, 2017
    Switzerland
    I'd like current rosewood equipped guitars to be available worldwide but the shift to other woods makes perfect sense in the long run. I have no problems with Pau ferro, Indian Laurel or baked maple.
     
  8. Winterwind

    Winterwind Gretschie

    422
    Dec 17, 2018
    London, Ontario
    Some changes would be nice. While I'm very reluctant to buy a guitar online as it is, regardless of whether it's from a retailer or private seller, every now and then there's something very tempting but CITES always gives me pause when I have been tempted.
     
  9. Merc

    Merc Country Gent

    May 6, 2017
    Florida
    I tried before and it wouldn’t let me edit the title but maybe I was over 24 hours.

    Thanks to the moderator that corrected the spelling of title this time.
     
    audept likes this.
  10. Alberta_Slim

    Alberta_Slim Gretschie

    466
    May 18, 2018
    Ontario
    I regard any government that would confiscate a musical instrument made before the regulations were passed to be engaged in an arbitrary and utterly reprehensible abuse of power, end of story. I'd fight it in court, making damn sure I got a lawyer whose expertise was in civil rights.
     
  11. Frank_NH

    Frank_NH Synchromatic

    765
    Mar 25, 2013
    Lebanon, NH
    I would argue that the luthier use of rosewood (especially Indian rosewood) is insignificant compared to the thousands and thousands of board feet used by the furniture industry (especially in China). Just do a web search with key words "China solid rosewood furniture". Many of the items are relatively inexpensive, if they are in fact made of solid (probably Indian) rosewood.

    I have a small stash of BRW that I've used for bridges etc. It was reclaimed from some solid BRW picture frames that were crafted decades ago for some awards. Beautiful wood and easy to work with. If I could just score just ONE old solid rosewood table, I'd be set for life as far as luthiery use is concerned.
     
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  12. loudnlousy

    loudnlousy Friend of Fred

    Age:
    53
    Oct 18, 2015
    Hildesheim, Germany
    I would really appreciate that because nowadays you cannot sell any of your old guitars without adequate proof of when you did acquire it.
    I rarely kept any documents like that. Especially with used gear.

    So to me it opens a juristic question: Is it forbidden to sell stuff that you once legally acquired? I is a form of disposession imho.
     
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  13. Aymara

    Aymara Friend of Fred

    Jul 6, 2013
    Germany
    As above concerns show, a correction of the current regulation is definitely needed, especially for used guitars.
     
    Merc likes this.
  14. Merc

    Merc Country Gent

    May 6, 2017
    Florida
    I agree. The only thing is court fees may be costly. Would it end up more than the price paid for the instrument itself, I don’t know. Hopefully one could get the legal fees paid for after winning in court. I know my pockets aren’t that deep.
     
  15. Alberta_Slim

    Alberta_Slim Gretschie

    466
    May 18, 2018
    Ontario
    My pockets are far from deep too, but I'll bet I could find a young new lawyer, or any lawyer doing their pro bono hours, or maybe one with a passion for civil rights who'd do it without gouging me.
     
  16. Merc

    Merc Country Gent

    May 6, 2017
    Florida
    Hopefully they’re out there. I have heard of huge fee’s.

    I’ve been lucky in life so far the only experience in court so far have been as a witness when a child, Bailiff during a Court Marshall, and as a Jury member 7 years ago. All of which cost me zilch. But I do hope that guy found guilty doesn’t track me down once out. I had no idea they call out each jury members name at the end. It was a very ugly case and he got 20 years.
     
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  17. Alberta_Slim

    Alberta_Slim Gretschie

    466
    May 18, 2018
    Ontario
    Insane. Didn't know that. :eek:
     
  18. Jockabilly

    Jockabilly Synchromatic

    Age:
    47
    593
    Sep 15, 2018
    Argyll
    I have to say that I don't really mind if wood was done away with altogether for guitars and other musical instruments and replaced with some synthetic product as long as it didn't sound bad. I really do think the world is sadly lacking in trees these days, even regular 'local' ones, let alone exotic tropical ones and it seems such a shame that something that has struggled to grow for 100 years or more is chopped down so that we can sit on it or strum away on it.

    Here in Scotland there is hardly any natural woodland left with most of the forestry we have being quick growing Scandinavian pine trees used for making toilet paper among other things. At one time almost all of Britain was covered in Ash, Oak, Elm etc. but, over the centuries it all went to fuel the industrial revolution.
     
  19. Merc

    Merc Country Gent

    May 6, 2017
    Florida
    That’s crazy and the first I’ve heard about Scotland growing quicker trees for toilet paper.

    I feel the problem with synthetics is that they are large in part, not renewable at all like trees. Most of the synthetics are in the plastic family. It can take up to 1000 years to break down plastics (plastic bags take 10-1000 years and plastic bottles can take 450 years). Plus the added dangers of breaking down and entering both our food and water source, likely contributing to future cancers and sicknesses with all the carcinogenics. That’s why they tell you not to leave water bottles in the heat and drink from them. The plastic leaches into your drinks. It raises estrogen levels and decreases testosterone in the body among other things. A plastic bottle can have over 100 different chemicals in it. The plastic formulas are not released do to fear of other companies stealing formulas. There has not been long term studies. It’s really all crazy. Even the microwave safe thing. It really just means it’s safe in the microwave and won’t melt entirely, not that it doesn’t leach into your food. That’s what plastics do when heated. Most of us now have plastics in our blood. Even a 2018 study found that 90% of teenagers have BPA in their blood and body. And that’s only one chemical.

    And sure you can recycle some plastics but while doing so contributing to Global warming in the process. Unless someone buys into a certain comment that global warming was invented by the Chinese (without turning this into political and getting locked).

    A large part of recyclable material isn’t even recycled. It’s sold and shipped to foreign countries that recycle some, but bury the rest in landfills. A lot of it went to China until a few years ago when they raised the amount of percentage it had to be pure and I believe also set annual limits. It backed up recycle plants in numorous countries that were selling it to China and didn’t know what to do with it all. I believe they’ve moved some onto other poorer countries.

    At least organic woods can be broken down easily and are less harmful to our planet. Maybe GMO tree’s need to be developed that grow at double the rate or more to deal with this over populated world and industrial complex. Or perhaps high end guitars made from metal. But I’m not sure how feasible that would be for both the weight and cost factor.

    Sorry if this sounded like a rant. I’m just not sure what other material options there are.
     
  20. Jockabilly

    Jockabilly Synchromatic

    Age:
    47
    593
    Sep 15, 2018
    Argyll
    Indeed I don't have any ideas as to what alternative materials are available either or their safety to us humans. The problem with the trees is that they are not only a resource but they are also a major part of the carbon capture mechanism of the world as well although, I believe, the narrow leafed spruces and pines don't do nearly as much as the broad leafed species. I am not an eco warrior or up on saving the planet but it would be nice if we had more, and more interesting varieties, of trees in my country. Unfortunately we had centuries of burning the woodlands to fuel the furnaces of industry and build the ships that my nation used to create it's long since lost empire and they have never been put back as they don't grow quickly enough to turn a profit.

    Waste plastics are going to be/already are a huge problem and Lord alone knows how the world will deal with that. I was reading just yesterday in the British news about how, since China closed it's doors to much of the waste we have been shipping to them, it has been going to other poorer Far Eastern countries where unscrupulous people are just burning much of it and making the locals seriously ill and who knows what clouds of toxic nasties are being sent into the atmosphere.

    Perhaps we should restrict ourselves to one guitar each in the interests of saving the planet o_O
     
    new6659 and Merc like this.
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