5120 wiring mod- worth it??

Discussion in 'Technical Side of Things' started by Teledriver, Feb 29, 2020.

  1. Teledriver

    Teledriver Gretschie

    Age:
    52
    256
    Feb 12, 2011
    Iowa City, IA
    Curious to wire the tone before the master (5120 and guessing it's wired the same as TV Jones' Tone Pot wiring scheme). Does it make sense to try it?? Just wondering, but itching to try.
    Thoughts or experiences please.
     
  2. DennisC

    DennisC Synchromatic

    Age:
    37
    737
    May 11, 2017
    Germany
    Uh ... I doubt it will result in a big difference, but a difference for sure.

    I'd rather play around with cap values, leaving everything in the place it's in...

    This will only affect anything if the volume is below maximum... Hm ... what is your goal with this?

    Tone at maximum will hardly be affected, too, but maybe a little bit. I'm not a professional in electronics...
     
    j.s.c likes this.
  3. Charles Conner

    Charles Conner Gretschie

    Age:
    78
    248
    May 19, 2016
    Maryland
    With the tone control being last in the 5120 guitar's circuit, wired the way it comes from the factory, the volume and tone controls don't work independently well. I found out the hard way , on the job while trying to play a slow instrumental (Los Indious Tabaharas' version of Maria Elena). As I tried to turn the tone back the volume dropped and visa versa, before I got it right the song was almost over. I also replaced the tone cap with a .022 in place of the original .047. I also did away with the 2 pickup volume controls . I have just one "master" volume control and tone control
     
  4. Teledriver

    Teledriver Gretschie

    Age:
    52
    256
    Feb 12, 2011
    Iowa City, IA
    Well my thought is to try and turn the master into an actual master, after all else is adjusted.
    Amp to cable to jack to Tone to Master to switch to pots.
    That's the way it currently is, although I do have it wired for independent volumes in the middle position. Do you guys see what I mean? I don't want two tone pots after the volumes, but wonder if there is a way with what's there already.
     
  5. Teledriver

    Teledriver Gretschie

    Age:
    52
    256
    Feb 12, 2011
    Iowa City, IA
    Let me put it this way: why is the Tone before (or after) the Master? Shouldn't the Tone be after the individual Volumes?
    And let me ask this too- in my 30-ish years of playing and messing around with wiring, I've never used a treble-bleed. Would a TB on the Master do what I am curious about??
    I'm not a noob, I just know enough to make me mostly-knowledgeable and dangerous.:)
     
    new6659 likes this.
  6. Charles Conner

    Charles Conner Gretschie

    Age:
    78
    248
    May 19, 2016
    Maryland
    IMG.jpg Use the volume as the volume control and the tone control as the tone, they have different tapers and work better as their original function. Don't change their mechanical positions on the guitar. just rewire the tone control into the "Hot Rod" type wiring as shown above. The tone control always sees the full signal level.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  7. Teledriver

    Teledriver Gretschie

    Age:
    52
    256
    Feb 12, 2011
    Iowa City, IA
    So pups are wide open all the time...but what about the middle position? Is that regulated based upon pup height???
     
  8. Charles Conner

    Charles Conner Gretschie

    Age:
    78
    248
    May 19, 2016
    Maryland
    I think the tone control(s) should be before any volume control(s) because signal level makes a difference in the choice of cap and pot values in the tone ckt.

    I never noticed the need for a treble bleed cap until the wiring of the volume pots was reversed in guitars (after the 1950's) with more than one pickup to allow better independent operation of the volume controls. Remember guitars in the 1950's, when you had both pickups switched on, either one of the volume controls could turn off the out put of both pickups. Then when you flipped the PU switch, the volume would blast out
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
    new6659 likes this.
  9. jarrodtaylor

    jarrodtaylor Gretschie

    183
    Mar 14, 2019
    Delray Beach, FL
    Yes. And the guitars I’ve done that to are easily the best sounding and most responsive in the collection.
     
    Charles Conner likes this.
  10. Charles Conner

    Charles Conner Gretschie

    Age:
    78
    248
    May 19, 2016
    Maryland
    Yes, adjust the PU's height to balance both PUs out put

    edit: I'm slow just noticed jarrodtaylor already answered
     
  11. Teledriver

    Teledriver Gretschie

    Age:
    52
    256
    Feb 12, 2011
    Iowa City, IA
    Okay, thanks guys!
    Now I'll throw this out. What if the sweet spot for the neck doesn't equal the sweet spot for the bridge? In other words, neck alone has the volume and the grit but no mud, together they sound good, but the bridge alone sounds either loud or quiet, or worse- thin and tinny. BUT the volumes are matched. Do you want the volumes matched, or the sweet spot/tone? OR is this minimal and a non-issue, and in your experiences doesn't really ever matter because it comes down to my pick-technique ? (If I switch to the bridge for a solo, for example, am I also going to have to quickly reach over everything to the tone and/or volume to keeps things...normal/right/sound good/etc...)
    Again, just throwing these questions out there in this thread, because I'd like as much knowledge and forum-based experience before dealing with f-holes!
     
  12. DennisC

    DennisC Synchromatic

    Age:
    37
    737
    May 11, 2017
    Germany
    This is likely a non-issue, but no one can garuantee this. In case it is not, the cure is simple - one or both pickups need a volume or the one that is too loud needs a resistor in it's signal path that only affects this pickup and maybe only is engaged when both pickups are.
     
  13. j.s.c

    j.s.c Country Gent

    Aug 19, 2008
    france
    The rule : the less is the volume input the stronger is the tone pot.

    Tone pot after master volume will be far too much effience as it will cut treble that has been cut by the master volume. So having your tone pot half way, lowering the mastervolume will increase the tone pot without even touching it.

    Let put it this way : is it sensible to see a girl with long hairs doing a color (master Vol) before cutting her hair short (tone pot) ? No,.. well I don't know, bad exemple.
     
  14. DennisC

    DennisC Synchromatic

    Age:
    37
    737
    May 11, 2017
    Germany
    I get what you're after, ...

    well ... uh ... the tone before master and tone after master essentially have one difference - which can easily be made switchable in a push/pull pot that acts as tone - just switch between the input- and center lug from master volume and then go in the usual tone configuration - try out - see what you like better and then rewire with standard pot.

    This would be a research-wiring, which ... isn't meant to be forever. When I have no idea about pickup's balance and other influences, I usually do so, wire all possible and sense-making combinations of pickups (or their coils to be exact), play around, identify what I like, what I don't like and what is, although working in principle, somehow messed up - then do similar with low/high cut, volumes and the like - then decide how the final wiring is.

    Usually, I don't go through this entirely (once did so with my then brother-in-kinda-law and a new built Tele of one of his friends), because I usually have at least a rough idea of what I want ... but, the rewiring of my bass guitar is due in the foreseeable future, and there I'll go this route, because the pickups are very different, one is new and one is weird (a sidewinder humbucking pickup, passive, with only 1.4 kOhm, but nevertheless pretty muddy sounding ... EB 0, neck pickup).

    This sounds weirder than it is ... a little research-subwiring for the tone, regarding the position the hot side is going into it, to me, seems like almost no work to do, but pretty clear knowledge to expect afterwards, so ... like this:


    upload_2020-3-5_15-16-39.jpeg

    Wire colours may vary, just did this to have it clear in the picture.

    blue and red come from different positions of the master volume pot; the pot of the push/pull I recommend here isn't shown, only switch (and cap, which can also be wired to the other side of the pot - don't matter here.

    However, all theory and stuff aside - do this and you know how it affects tone and regulatability.
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice