[Danny]

I did not think anyone was being argumentative, least of all me. Anyway, I openned both panels on the back of the guitar. There was no number or paper inside either - just electronics. However, etched on the outside of the larger oblong panel, apparently by hand, was the number 24416-S. Does that mean anything to anyone?

[Danny]

P.S. Does anyone know where I just lost the two screws?

[Wayne Gretschzky]

Danny... Jet solidbody models are the only Gretsch models that had their serial number in two places, printed on the paper label inside, and hand-scribed on the outside edge of the large control plate. They did this from the beginning of the format in 1953. So that scribed number is in fact the serial number.

Now... this may be hard for you to verify, as only one book I know explains these odd #24xxx serial numbers, and why they appear on guitars in 1966... but your guitar is most likely from that period. There ;s a Jet Firebird on Ebay right now, being purported to be a '63 example, but it too does not have a label, and it offers a photo of it's hand scribed serial number (#24437), obviously made very closely to yours! A way to confirm this vintage is to have a guitar tech/repair person document the potentiometer codes, which are date-coded. My guess is that they will be from either Nov. of '65 or early in '66. If so, this proves the vintage attribution I've proposed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110732297952...#ht_3220wt_291

There IS a story behind these odd "out-of-sequence" serial numbers, and it involves a lost roll of labels from 1957 that were used 9 years later during the period when Gretsch was changing from their sequential serial number system, to their date-coded system (and serial numbers located on the reverse of the headstock) in August of 1966.

What this doesn't explain is the confusion (we have) about the model. Too bad the labels on these apparently weren't used, as the stamped model number would have been a quick verification.

PS - The "S" at the end of the serial number... I have no idea what that is.

[knavel]

It's rather coincidental that seemingly there's the appearance of two of these guitars from the "lost serial number" group kicking around and both saying 1963/64 and not 1966.

Were they still putting Burns vibratos on the Jets in 66? because in another thread Danny commented that a 6131 with the Burns was exactly his but in black.

I wasn't actually sure that they were still putting labels in the jets in the mid 60s--I've never seen one close up. Between the ebay one you link to and his, there are two with no labels....so Gretsch had stopped putting them in the cavity by then? If so, why would the company bother to follow the "lost serial number" sequence?

Also, Danny seems to have a pretty clear recollection of how old he was when he got his guitar. For instance if he saw the Beatles on Ed Sullivan like everyone else and the next day got this guitar, that's something someone is likely to remember. But that doesn't get us from Feb 64 to 1966.

I think your suggestion of checking the pot codes is the best idea here. A few photos would help as well, we'd see things like Burns vs Bigsby, Super vs Filtertrons and so forth and this would be of assistance.

PS - I hope you found those screws.

[Danny]

Thanks for the ebay and catalog sites below Wayne. Very illuminating. I scrutinized every photo on the ebay site and that "Jet Firebird" is an absolute dead ringer for mine in every detail except for color. Every single component matches mine, even the gold colored pick guard and the case. I do not know if it is the photography, but the ebay photo of the back appears to be green. The back and sides of mine are a consistant brown.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110732297952...#ht_3220wt_291

http://gretschpages.com/history/memo...talog/#slide-8

The catalog picture shows the closest Duo Jet to mine. I knew the double cutaway bodies of the two models were the same and the one shown here shows MOST of the same components as mine. The two component differences that appear on the Jet Firebird pictured and mine are the wooden section of the bridge that rests on the body of the guitar and the metal (do not know the term for it) that anchors the strings and where the tremelo bar attaches - at the end of the guitar where you would attach a strap. On the Duo Jet pictured, that piece seems to be larger, flater and has an L shaped marking which may be photography again. Also, the Duo Jet pictured does not seem to have the wooden portion of the bridge like my guitar and the Jet Firebird pictured. Again, possibly photography.

Assuming the pictured Duo Jet has a gold pick guard, the color and body style match mine but it still differs slightly in the components.

The pictured Jet Firebird matches in every respect except for color.

So the confusion continues.

Wayne, I also did some online research into the potentiometer codes you mentioned. What I found is that they might date the guitar but there was no mention of their identifying the model. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Perhaps I am just hoping, but is there any chance the guitar was actually manufactured in the fifties as the number would indicate, were it not for the lost batch you mentioned?

Finally, for those of you who vote Duo Jet, I was led to this web site that agrees with you. This Duo Jet is a dead ringer for my guitar in every detail.

http://www.classicrockguitars.nl/sit...mart&Itemid=53

I did, however, finally unearth another dead ringer identified as a Jet Firebird. That site will be provided when I re-find it.

Most importantly, however, I FOUND THE TWO SCREWS!

Thanks for everyones input.

[Danny]

If anyone cares by now, this site shows a Duo Jet identical to my guitar except for the saddle (the pictured one seems better than mine) and the head stock. The pictured one is brown and mine is black.

http://www.classicrockguitars.nl/sit...mart&Itemid=53

I am beginning to think that the two models are, for the most part, identical except if I can somehow identify mine as a Jet Firebird as I was told upon purchase, it seems to be one of very very few made in black.

[coreyman97]

post some photos so we can all appreciate her.

[Brian Damage]

It's a duo jet. The whole point of a jet firebird is the red color. No black firebirds have ever been made. More than likely the guy who told you it was a jet firebird was just confused.

[bobhoward]

I always thought they called it a Firebird because it was red.

[tartanphantom]

Originally Posted by Brian Damage

It's a duo jet. The whole point of a jet firebird is the red color. No black firebirds have ever been made. More than likely the guy who told you it was a jet firebird was just confused.

I concur. A Jet Firebird has never been anything more than a Duo Jet in a red suit. If it ain't red with a black back, then it's not a Jet Firebird.
The differences noted in the catalog pictures can be attributed to the fact that Gretsch often used the same stock pictures over several years worth of catalogs at a time. Hence, some pictures will show variations that weren't necessarily in production at the time the catalogs were issued. In fact, they STILL do that.

[Wayne Gretschzky]

Ok... forgive my brevity,

knavel... good point about why they wouldn't use the "lost" '57 labels, but still use the serial numbers. There are plenty of Country Gent models from this #24xxx period, and they of course have their serial number on the headstock plaques (no labels either), so it wasn't unprecedented. I've found the actual labels to be used on Anniversary models, which were some of the few open f-holed archtop in the line by 1966. (see link... and note the pot codes from this #24xxx Annie)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1965...ht_6382wt_1082

knavel... the 1965 catalog still shows Burns vibrtos on Jets, although as tarten points out, the catalog pix are not definitive. I've documented Jets as late as Dec of '66 with Burns units. The earliest V-bigsby on a Jet I've seen is Jan. '67.

Danny... your guitar is not from the 1950s. No double-cutaway Jets until 1961.

Danny... the bridges on these guitars are "floating" and only held in place by string tension. Its one of the most transient features on a guitar, and little can be gleaned when comparing two vintage Gretsch guitars by their bridges.

Danny... pot codes will only provide the date the pot was made... no model info.

Now that you've seen another Duo jet that matches yours, perhaps you'll begin to get comfortable with the idea that this is what you have. And what a great guitar to have!

[Danny]

I never doubted it's a great guitar. It just wish I could positively identify it with that model number. It is a given that the two models have identical bodies. I also agree that all red Gretschs with that body typ are Jet Firebirds. The question is still are ONLY red Gretschs with that body type Jet Firebird. Obviously if I had that model number and could prove mine was a Jet Firebird, it would be one of a very few or possibly the only black one. That would raise its value.

Finally, it seems that the Jet Firbirds were very consistant with their components and mine has identical components. It is the Duo Jet that has various components. So are the components irrelevant and only color controls? Who knows?

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by bobhoward

I always thought they called it a Firebird because it was red.

Burt Reynolds drove a Firebird in
Smokey and The Bandit, and it was
black.

===================================

<><> Raspy <><>

[Lizardkinged]

Originally Posted by Danny

I never doubted it's a great guitar. It just wish I could positively identify it with that model number. It is a given that the two models have identical bodies. I also agree that all red Gretschs with that body typ are Jet Firebirds. The question is still are ONLY red Gretschs with that body type Jet Firebird. Obviously if I had that model number and could prove mine was a Jet Firebird, it would be one of a very few or possibly the only black one. That would raise its value.

Finally, it seems that the Jet Firbirds were very consistant with their components and mine has identical components. It is the Duo Jet that has various components. So are the components irrelevant and only color controls? Who knows?

I'm 99 percent positive its a Duo-Jet. If its not red, its not a firebird. Either you misheard the man in the store way back whenever, or he misspoke for whatever reason.

If you stick around long enough you will realize that Wayne knows what he is talking about. I honestly think that I've only seen him wrong one time over the last year, and he corrected himself.

[bobhoward]

Originally Posted by Raspy

Burt Reynolds drove a Firebird in
Smokey and The Bandit, and it was
black.

===================================

<><> Raspy <><>

I stand corrected.

[Gretschaholic]

As I see it, without it being red or having a label identifying it as a firebird you are never going to convince anyone it's a firebird.

Even if it was a black firebird with missing label it would not matter.

If it walks like a duck etc.
It walks like a duo jet.

[Lizardkinged]

Originally Posted by Gretschaholic

As I see it, without it being red or having a label identifying it as a firebird you are never going to convince anyone it's a firebird.

Even if it was a black firebird with missing label it would not matter.

If it walks like a duck etc.
It walks like a duo jet.

I dont think its us that he's trying to convince.

[LittleRedRooster]

Could a "black Firebird" be a factory refinnish of an originally red top guitar?

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by bobhoward

I stand corrected.

I hope you realize that was my atempt at
a joke, as bad as it may seem. I did put in
the smiley, and big grin.

Being Italian, I find it tough to express
my self without tone control in my voice,
and use of my hands.

========================================

<><> Raspy <><>

[bobhoward]

Originally Posted by Raspy

I hope you realize that was my atempt at
a joke, as bad as it may seem. I did put in
the smiley, and big grin.

Being Italian, I find it tough to express
my self without tone control in my voice,
and use of my hands.

========================================

<><> Raspy <><>

I know. Me too. Sorry, I forgot the