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theknownuniverse · April 17th, 2011, 08:56 AM

I'm not expecting to get much love from the hardcore fans of either Gretsch or Gibson, so I hesitate to reveal my mad experiment, but I need a little advice from some of you free-thinkers out there.

I'm cross pollinating my Les Paul and my 6121. Kind of. That is to say, I'm building a guitar using elements of both.

I started with a pre-made Les Paul-style body and neck from a company called Bulldog (Routed for P-90s) and after crossing the first major hurdle of successfully gluing the two pieces together into something that will be playable, I've begun to think about the fun stuff.

Originally, I wasn't planning on doing anything too out of the ordinary, but as I prepared to drill holes into the guitar's top in order to mount a traditional Les Paul bridge, I had an idea. What if I put a floating bridge on the Les Paul body? A floating bridge on a solid, non-chambered body might sound like garbage, (It certainly won't sound like a Les Paul, and probably not much like the Gretsch, either) but since I'm not in a quest for any particular tone, I want to give it a try it just to hear for myself what it sounds like. (I can always drill holes later.)

Anyway, here is my conundrum:

The electronics in a Les Paul are grounded to the bridge, while the electronics in my 6121 appear to be grounded to the tailpiece (?). I'm at a loss for where to run a ground wire on my experiment. It's going to have a Bigsby on it, but the Les Paul body doesn't have a channel leading to the tail the way the Gretsch does. (What exactly is the Gretsch grounded to anyway? One of the Bigsby screws??)

I suppose i could use a long drill bit and drill a channel from the bottom of the guitar into the control cavity and try to ground it like the Gretsch, but before I start drilling, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any other ideas?

Also, does anyone know of any solid body (non-chambered) guitars that were ever made with a floating bridge? (Floyd Rose notwithstanding.)

jaycemumford · April 17th, 2011, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theknownuniverse

I'm not expecting to get much love from the hardcore fans of either Gretsch or Gibson, so I hesitate to reveal my mad experiment, but I need a little advice from some of you free-thinkers out there.

I'm cross pollinating my Les Paul and my 6121. Kind of. That is to say, I'm building a guitar using elements of both.

I started with a pre-made Les Paul-style body and neck from a company called Bulldog (Routed for P-90s) and after crossing the first major hurdle of successfully gluing the two pieces together into something that will be playable, I've begun to think about the fun stuff.

Originally, I wasn't planning on doing anything too out of the ordinary, but as I prepared to drill holes into the guitar's top in order to mount a traditional Les Paul bridge, I had an idea. What if I put a floating bridge on the Les Paul body? A floating bridge on a solid, non-chambered body might sound like garbage, (It certainly won't sound like a Les Paul, and probably not much like the Gretsch, either) but since I'm not in a quest for any particular tone, I want to give it a try it just to hear for myself what it sounds like. (I can always drill holes later.)

Anyway, here is my conundrum:

The electronics in a Les Paul are grounded to the bridge, while the electronics in my 6121 appear to be grounded to the tailpiece (?). I'm at a loss for where to run a ground wire on my experiment. It's going to have a Bigsby on it, but the Les Paul body doesn't have a channel leading to the tail the way the Gretsch does. (What exactly is the Gretsch grounded to anyway? One of the Bigsby screws??)

I suppose i could use a long drill bit and drill a channel from the bottom of the guitar into the control cavity and try to ground it like the Gretsch, but before I start drilling, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any other ideas?

Also, does anyone know of any solid body (non-chambered) guitars that were ever made with a floating bridge? (Floyd Rose notwithstanding.)

I like this idea! alot!

Regards to the bridge, gretsch bigsby equipped guitars are grounded with a wire with about an inch of the end stripped off then clamped inbetween the body and hinged part of the bigsby. There is just another hole to the side of the strap pin hole.

Now for you project, will your floating bridge be pinned? If so i would run the wire throught the top of the body and up into the bridge base and into the the hole squashed in between the rosewood base and the threaded pole of the tune-o-matic pole. hope that makes sense?

Or use the same idea as the normal gretsch way but just do it on the top of the guitar closest to the control cavity. drill a hole from the top down into the control cavity and run the wire through there.
i can try an put up a pic of what i mean.

Sarah93003 · April 17th, 2011, 10:40 AM

This will be fun to see as it comes together. Sorry I can't offer any advice on electrical things.

absaroke · April 17th, 2011, 10:46 AM

I'm not much of a guitar electrician, but couldn't you ground to the shielding in the control cavity? My tele has copper lining in the cavities and I seem to recall ground spots in some other guitars to the shielding in cavities.

theknownuniverse · April 17th, 2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

I'm not much of guitar electrician

Me neither! Ha.
I could be wrong, but isn't the shielding itself usually grounded to something?

Quote:

drill a hole from the top down into the control cavity and run the wire through there.

That's actually a good idea. The hole doesn't have to be very big, and it will get hidden by the Bigsby. Do you happen to know if I can ground it to a gold Bigsby, or do I need to sand off some of the plating?

I'd post pictures, but there's not much to see yet. Like I said, it's glued together and I've stained the back, sides and neck, but that's about it. Waiting for some lacquer to arrive. The plan is for a dark red mahogany back and sides with a Cadillac green top and gold hardware. I think (hope) it'll look sharp.

RockabillyGlenn · April 17th, 2011, 01:12 PM

Ok, I may have missed something here, or just being plain dumb.

As I understand, floating bridges are taller than say a TOM screwed directly to the body, requiring a greater neck to body angle than I would expect with a Les Paul.

But I'm probably wrong......

theknownuniverse · April 17th, 2011, 03:33 PM

I think you're right, but I think that would only a problem if it were the other way around. Since the floating bridge's base is made of wood, I'm hoping I can shave it down and make it work. Once the Bigsby arrives (should be here by Tuesday) I'll string it up and find out.

jaycemumford · April 17th, 2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by absaroke

I'm not much of a guitar electrician, but couldn't you ground to the shielding in the control cavity? My tele has copper lining in the cavities and I seem to recall ground spots in some other guitars to the shielding in cavities.

Yes and no, the copper sheild is usually still grounded to the bridge.

[quote="theknownuniverse"]

Me neither! Ha.
I could be wrong, but isn't the shielding itself usually grounded to something?

That's actually a good idea. The hole doesn't have to be very big, and it will get hidden by the Bigsby. Do you happen to know if I can ground it to a gold Bigsby, or do I need to sand off some of the plating?

I'd post pictures, but there's not much to see yet. Like I said, it's glued together and I've stained the back, sides and neck, but that's about it. Waiting for some lacquer to arrive. The plan is for a dark red mahogany back and sides with a Cadillac green top and gold hardware. I think (hope) it'll look sharp.[/QUOTE

We still want pics! The gold plating is fine it will still make a connection

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockabillyGlenn

Ok, I may have missed something here, or just being plain dumb.

As I understand, floating bridges are taller than say a TOM screwed directly to the body, requiring a greater neck to body angle than I would expect with a Les Paul.

But I'm probably wrong......

Yes they usually are, but floatimg usually are adjusted quite high and you always sand the base a little!

theknownuniverse · April 17th, 2011, 07:20 PM

Quote:

We still want pics!

As requested:

Here are a couple of pictures of the project in its current state. Like I said, nothing to see, really, though I probably should've started documenting the entire process from the moment I opened the box. I don't know why I didn't.

In case it's not obvious from the photo, the body came with a flamed maple top (a veneer) which I put some stain on thinking I might try to use, but I lost interest in that idea after about a minute so right not it's looking pretty puke-ish. (Most of the builds I've seen using these bodies do some kind of flamed maple sunburst type thing, and I'm sure I'd probably catch a lot of hell if I posted my plans to paint over it on the Les Paul forums-- not to mention that I cut the headstock to resemble a Gretsch shape rather than a Gibson shape -- but whatever.

The back is simply stained and finished with a couple of coats of Minwax Tung Oil Finish. It's far from perfect, but who cares, it's a "relic." Ha!

theknownuniverse · April 18th, 2011, 07:13 AM

Inspired by the various Triton cafe racer logos that blend both Triumph and Norton logos, I was knocked this out this morning. Not sure if I'll use it for anything, just having some fun.

jaycemumford · April 18th, 2011, 07:22 AM

Wow! that looks great!

Just reread my comments, my grammar was shocking! sorry about that it was about 6:30am before work and on an iphone!

Rockabillyglen has a good point about the floating bridge base being to high, so you may nave to start from scratch with a new rosewood base. and shape it down to the right height. But if that neck pocket is the same agle as an actual Les Paul you shoud be ok

theknownuniverse · April 18th, 2011, 07:51 AM

No worries, spelling and grammar don't count on forums.
Speaking of iPhones, I measured my neck angle using an app called "IHandy Level." Couldn't get a consistent measurement, but it seems to be just shy of 5 degrees, which is correct for a Les Paul. BUT comparing my Les Paul and my Jet side by side, although the angles look pretty similar, I noticed that the Jet's neck sits high in the pocket, whereas the Les Paul neck is nearly flush -- about a one centimeter difference. D'oh!

jaycemumford · April 18th, 2011, 08:18 AM

Hmmm the higher it sat the easier it would be.

Never minid we can come up with a solution, should be alright.

theknownuniverse · April 18th, 2011, 08:29 AM

That's what I like to hear!

Jukebox · April 18th, 2011, 10:59 AM

Nice going, is the guitar chambered? That is the one thing that will make or break it for the Gretsch sound. But it is very nice.

megabutter · April 18th, 2011, 11:06 AM

Did you get your question as to grounding answered?

As long as you ground to the bridge or tailpiece you'll be fine. Doesn't matter which one. They're all touching each other via the strings.

I have a similar experiment going on! Can't wait to see more of yours!

theknownuniverse · April 18th, 2011, 12:54 PM

Yeah, thanks, got the grounding question answered. How far along are you with your project, megabutter? Inquiring minds want to know...

And no, Jukebox, not chambered, which is part of the experiment. I don't expect it to sound like a Gretsch, I'm just hoping it sounds interesting. I'm planning to put P-90s in it to start with, but if it plays well enough to justify the expense, I'm hoping to eventually put TV Jones T-Armonds in it, which come in a P-90 mount. (Which has been part of the master plan all along and is the reason I purchased the body routed for P-90s to begin with.) We shall see...

Did I mention that I've never built a guitar before?
Baby steps.

megabutter · April 18th, 2011, 11:52 PM

Not far.

http://www.gretsch-talk.com/forum/te...-ill-call.html

I told this guy I'd help him put this frickin' Roland effects unit IN a bass. It has become the bane of my existance and completely halted progress on my "LP120" and the mahogany tele I'm working on for a buddy. It's the stupidest bass ever.

I need to get back on it, for sure.

Will follow your thread with interest though!!

theknownuniverse · April 19th, 2011, 04:48 PM

Success! Well, not total success, but I'm definitely encouraged enough to continue.

FEDEX delivered the Bigsby and the tuners today so I strung up the bastard child for the moment of truth,

(Ignore the puke-ish unfinished top and imagine a nice and shiny "Cadillac Green.")

Acoustically it sounds awesome, and it's loud. Even with the nut only being held in place with string tension and some tape!

I was surprised that it's considerably louder than my 6121. Not sure why, since the 6121 is chambered an this bastard-child isn't.

There's still a long way to go with the build. As you can see I strung it up with a Compton, which I originally bought for my 6121 (with a 12 degree radius) and the bastard-child has a 9.5 neck, but it honestly didn't bother me much. But I still have more sanding to do to get the floating bridge low enough. I was sanding and sanding and sanding (must've sanded close to an eighth of an inch of wood) and it still needs to be lower. (As a short cut, I just took off the height adjust thumb wheels and it's nearly spot on like that, so not much more to go.)

Not sure if you can tell from the pic, but in my excitement, I installed the Bigsby off-center. Oh well, it has to come off to do the finish work, anyway.

Onward!

Dan C · April 19th, 2011, 05:35 PM

Great! Good to see you are making Progress, The only thing I will add is that because the Bigsby is off centre you may have problems when aligning pole pieces and mainly where the strings rest on the frets they may be more over to one side, Other than that - It WILL look Awesome.

Jukebox · April 19th, 2011, 05:46 PM

Is it the picture or is the bigsby alined wrong? The strings look like it is moved to the right of the picture??

theknownuniverse · April 19th, 2011, 06:08 PM

Yes, as I said in the post, the Bigsby isn't aligned properly, and yes, it pulls the bridge and strings. But, at this stage of the game, it's no problem to simply take it off and realign it. Like I said, it has to come off anyway.

ishtar · April 19th, 2011, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theknownuniverse

Inspired by the various Triton cafe racer logos that blend both Triumph and Norton logos, I was knocked this out this morning. Not sure if I'll use it for anything, just having some fun.

That's nuts! Interfaith Communion....

D. Spree · April 20th, 2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishtar

That's nuts! Interfaith Communion....

Yeh, but much better than a GibTsch

Dan C · April 20th, 2011, 09:48 AM

Will the Cadillac Green be transparent? You wouldn't want to paint over that nice flame maple grain, would ya?

Ricochet · April 20th, 2011, 11:10 AM

Colour me weird...I love the finish as it is now!

Let me know if you want me to make that logo more uniform...

theknownuniverse · April 20th, 2011, 12:18 PM

The P-90 style bodies weren't offered with a plain top, so I ordered what they had -- the flame. But it's just a thin maple veneer, so I don't have any qualms about painting over it. In other words, opaque green.

Here's the funny thing about the logo. I seriously spent about two minutes throwing that together. So, this morning, I decided to try to clean it up, unify it, balance it out a little, etc., etc. But honestly, the more I did to it, the less I liked it, and the less it looked like what it is: A mashup. (Not to mention how rough the whole project will probably turn out to be.)

If you check out the actual Gretsch and Gibson logos they are pretty rough. (The angles of the individual letters in both logos are all over the place.) It's part of their historic pre-computer charm, I think. Having said that, though, if you want to entertain yourself I'd love to see what you come up with.

I'm on the fence about doing an inlayed veneer on the headstock, but I sent this drawing to Paul Setzer this morning to see about making a custom pickguard, and I'm thinking about putting the logo on that. like so:

calvin lee · April 20th, 2011, 12:49 PM

i love everything but the logo. can't wait to see this all finished!

theknownuniverse · April 20th, 2011, 01:00 PM

I'm in limbo while I wait for finishing supplies and assorted parts, so it's a good time to mess around with the logo. I'm open to ideas.

adamwhizbang · April 20th, 2011, 01:09 PM

I love guitarists. This is nutty good fun.

Ricochet · April 20th, 2011, 01:16 PM

Hows this?

theknownuniverse · April 20th, 2011, 01:35 PM

I dig it! I think we have a winner.
The ® is a nice touch. Lends it a certain authority. Heh.

Ricochet · April 20th, 2011, 01:49 PM

Glad you like it. Gimme a sec to save one in hi-res. This is a preview(lo-res) version, not suitable for prints. I'll post the link later.

theknownuniverse · April 20th, 2011, 01:54 PM

Ricochet · April 20th, 2011, 02:07 PM

Haha...that will work. Here's the Hi-res link:
http://www.euronet.nl/~wat/studio/pi...-Hi-res-01.jpg

theknownuniverse · April 20th, 2011, 02:30 PM

Sweet. Thanks!

While mocking up that headstock, I was struck with the idea of calling it the "Lester Chester" but if I do that, I really need to make it Orange. Maybe "Orange Burst." But I already ordered the green paint. And, well, I already HAVE an orange guitar!

Setzer · April 20th, 2011, 10:20 PM

Hey tku that is going to be wild in Caddy Green. This reminds me to get busy on my SG build. It's got a flame top like your kit.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...uitar%20build/

jaycemumford · April 21st, 2011, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theknownuniverse

Success! Well, not total success, but I'm definitely encouraged enough to continue.

FEDEX delivered the Bigsby and the tuners today so I strung up the bastard child for the moment of truth,

(Ignore the puke-ish unfinished top and imagine a nice and shiny "Cadillac Green.")

Acoustically it sounds awesome, and it's loud. Even with the nut only being held in place with string tension and some tape!

I was surprised that it's considerably louder than my 6121. Not sure why, since the 6121 is chambered an this bastard-child isn't.

There's still a long way to go with the build. As you can see I strung it up with a Compton, which I originally bought for my 6121 (with a 12 degree radius) and the bastard-child has a 9.5 neck, but it honestly didn't bother me much. But I still have more sanding to do to get the floating bridge low enough. I was sanding and sanding and sanding (must've sanded close to an eighth of an inch of wood) and it still needs to be lower. (As a short cut, I just took off the height adjust thumb wheels and it's nearly spot on like that, so not much more to go.)

Not sure if you can tell from the pic, but in my excitement, I installed the Bigsby off-center. Oh well, it has to come off to do the finish work, anyway.

Onward!

Theknownuniverse, thats looking great! See easy, didnt even need help!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Hows this?

Looks great Rich!

Quote:

Originally Posted by theknownuniverse

Sweet. Thanks!

While mocking up that headstock, I was struck with the idea of calling it the "Lester Chester" but if I do that, I really need to make it Orange. Maybe "Orange Burst." But I already ordered the green paint. And, well, I already HAVE an orange guitar!

Ahhh Lester Chester, it makes sense now

jaycemumford · April 21st, 2011, 01:43 AM

theknownuniverse,

this is what i do with all my Bigsby's, i screw it to the body with a small stainless steel screw hidden under the spring

I dont see why they need to pivot eanyway...

theknownuniverse · April 25th, 2011, 07:28 AM

Waiting for the rainy weather to quit so I can start the clear coats.

For anyone interested, the green paint is from Guitar ReRanch. They call it "Cadillac Green" and is supposed to be similar to the color Gretsch uses on the back of the two-tone green Anniversary models. I don't have one to compare side-by-side, but it's close enough for my taste. (Although right now, without a glossy clear coat finish, it looks like some kind of Government Issue guitar from WWII.