[bobframe]

I have often wondered and have heard others ask as well, whether there is a drop in replacement for the (insert your favorite derogatory term here) Grover 14:1 tuners that come standard on many Gretsch models. I have them on my 6120 DSW, 6120GA and 6118T-120.

My conclusion is that there is no perfect magic bullet.

However, I am hot on the trail of a nearly perfect solution.

Grover makes an 18:1 open back tuner that looks very, very similar to the 14:1 model and I have heard and have observed that it is a way superior product. Using a digital micrometer, I took careful measurements of the 14's and found that nearly all of the dimensions differ from the 18's (unthinkable in my book, but true), but not in really huge ways. I thought they might work.

So, I ordered a set and today my guitar tech, Mark Wilmot of Atlanta, GA and I pulled off a couple of the 14:1 tuners and put 18:1's in their place. We observed that the 18:1's have a thicker string post, massively larger gear with more teeth and a much heavier base plate. Better built all round.

Here's what we found:

1. The string posts on the 18's have a larger diameter- but not by much. It's workable.

2. The backs of the 18:1 tuners (the part that screws to the headstock) are slightly longer than the 14:1's, but by very little. We checked and they will fit-there's room on the headstock for the longer backs to fit.

3. The grommet around the post has a slightly larger inside diameter (to accomodate the larger diameter post of the 18:1's) and a slightly smaller outside diameter than the 14:1's- go figure. In spite of differences, it is workable. The holes in the headstock don't need to be enlarged- in fact the new grommets need to be beefed up with tape or something like that to increase their outside diameter. Easy.

4. The top screw hole for the tuner is a dead matchup- perfect. The bottom screw hole needs to have a new pilot hole drilled, but here's the beauty part: the old hole does not need to be plugged (it's far enough away from the new hole that you can leave it alone) and the back of the 18:1 tuner will cover the old hole. The new screw hole would be covered by the old 14:1 body if you ever wanted to return to the original tuner.

No toothpicks, no glue, no paint matching.

So, we'll have to drill one tiny screw hole per tuner, the new tuner covers the old screw hole and the old tuner will cover the new screw hole if I ever want to convert back. THis is what I call an "elegant solution".

I'll add pics when I can showing the conversion- I suspect its something that anyone with a cordless drill and a screw driver can do.

Grover 18:1's (shown below) are available for ~$51.00 from StewMac.

More to follow.

[Jukebox]

Cool! thanks Bob!

[roadjunkie]

I'll be watching this one closely! Good stuff! I liked that modded locking tuner that Flaco did over on the GDP but it seemed too involved!

[bobframe]

I agree. also, that solution required trashing one set of tuners. Or was it both sets? This solution leaves you with a salable or reusable set of 14:1's and an elegant path to retreat if you want. I'll know tomorrow if it all works as we think it will, but it looked workable this afternoon.

What would be perfectly elegant would be if the footprints of the 14's and 18's were identical. I am baffled by such tiny differences.

[JohnS]

One guy designed the 14's, another guy at another time did the 18's. Simple.

[bobframe]

Originally Posted by JohnS

One guy designed the 14's, another guy at another time did the 18's. Simple.

Simpleton.

Edit: Not you John, the guy. Actually, the guy's boss.

[bobframe]

Here's an update.

Got my 6120GA back from the shop with the new Grover 18:1's and the conversion turned out great. As you should be able to see from the pics- there was no need to patch anything. The new tuners used one of the original screw mounting holes (the top one) and required one new pilot hole to be drilled for each tuner (the bottom hole). The new tuners cover the unused bottom pilot hole from the original tuners- so there was not need to try to patch this hole. And if I wanted to return to the original tuners, the original pilot holes are still there and the original tuners will cover the new pilot hole from the 18:1's. Poifect!!!!

My guitar tech is going to send me pictures showing the conversion in progress so you can see what was involved. His pictures should also show three new tuners on one side of the headstock and three original tuners on the other side so you can see a side by side comparison. I'll post them as soon as he sends them to me. Frankly, I suspect I could now do the conversion myself- the only real work is drilling six pilot holes- I think I'm qualified (and I have two other guitars with Grover 14:1's just begging to be converted).

While I would like it better if this was a truly "drop in replacement", this is about as close as you can get. I think the Grover 18:1 is superior to the 14:1 tuners and yet looks very, very similar. The tuner operates much more smoothly, with no slop or backlash- if that's the right word.

All of these pictures below show the new Grover 18:1 tuners.

[GreatGretsch]

Thanks for sharing!!!! Great photos too!

I wonder if that would work for my 5120.

[wenzel]

I put those 18:1 grovers on my old 1966 starfire III. They were awesome! I prefer locking sperzels overall, but those tuners were smooth and worked great! Congrats, the buttons look awesome too with a nice vintage look to them!

[bobframe]

Originally Posted by GreatGretsch

Thanks for sharing!!!! Great photos too!

I wonder if that would work for my 5120.

Can you take a good picture of the back of your headstock and post it here? I just checked the spec's page and it doesn't describe the tuners on a 5120 as Groover Sta Tites, so I'm guessing its something else.

I have never had the nerve to mess with tuners, but watching my tech remove one of my original tuners- well, it is pretty straightforward. If you could order a set from someone with a liberal return policy, I suspect you would find out in a heart beat if you had a problem or not.

[bobframe]

This should be the last series on the Grover tuner upgrade.

These pictures were taken by my tech as he did the conversion. One shot compares the tuners side by side (that's the 14:1 on the left, 18:1 on the right), the second shows where the new pilot hole (in red) was to be drilled to accommodate the lower mounting screw for the new tuners and the final shot shows three of each tuner (14:1's in on upper side, 18:1's on lower side) on a side installed.

As I said before, the original mounting hole is covered by the new tuner and the new mounting hole would be covered if you ever wanted to return to the original tuners.

[GreatGretsch]

Originally Posted by bobframe

Can you take a good picture of the back of your headstock and post it here? I just checked the spec's page and it doesn't describe the tuners on a 5120 as Groover Sta Tites, so I'm guessing its something else.

It will be a couple of days. I am working out of town this week.
From my memory, it looks similar.

[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

What sort of performance/sound/tuning difference is gained from going from the 14:1 to the 18:1?

[TV the Wired Turtle]

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

What sort of performance/sound/tuning difference is gained from going from the 14:1 to the 18:1?

less backlash and faster tuning.. i doubt the slight gain in mass would result in
noticeable sustain like sperzels do.

thanks for that tidbit, I was ready to just pay for waverly on my acoustic ..these sound like a great solution.

[S Macp]

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

What sort of performance/sound/tuning difference is gained from going from the 14:1 to the 18:1?

Depends on the diameter. A higher ratio itself is not a measure of improvement.