[Strummerson]

Billy Zoom posted a fascinating comment over at GDP in a thread entitled "Let's talk P90s. I'm pretty sure I want a P90 hollow body. But as you'll note here, he claims P90s are basically a slightly brighter sounding Dyna:

The Kent Armstrong vintage P-90's sound just like real vintage P-90's. The TV Jones P-90's also have a very authentic tone, although I've only heard them on Tom's guitars, and never on a Gretsch. I don't know whether anyone is making a really authentic Alnico "Staple" type pickup, but the originals are wonderful. It would be worth looking into if you're going to deface a Falcon anyway. If you already have Dyna's on it, you could just switch to a Seymour or T-Armond without messing up the guitar. They don't really sound all that different from a P-90. You just have to turn the Treble knob a number higher. I have a 1960 Epiphone that I used in the studio pretty much interchangeably with the Silver Jet. I can't tell anymore which guitar was which on the recordings. The Jet had much better sustain because of the hollow body, but that's more of a feel thing. If any of you are familiar with the long version of X's Wild Thing, the first solo is the Silver Jet, and the second solo was the Epiphone...no reason except that I was already holding that one when our producer decided that I should redo the second solo.
Anyway, if you have FilterTrons now, go for it. If you have Dyna's, think about just getting better ones. On the other hand, guitar sacrilege can be cool just because it's so uncool.
BZ

Anyone have that version of Wild Thing?

Do you think they are really that close?

Or is it that there's overlap between them with a tonal range where they meet, but that each can also do something the other can't?

[Strummerson]

This of course then begs the question of why Eddie Cochran replaced his neck Dyna with a P90...

[Henrytwang]

Billy's right a good P90 can sound very like a Dynasonic. The trouble is that there are a lot of bad P90s' about, I hated the ones on my Korean Epiphone Casino. I did read somewhere that early Gibson P90s' had Alnico3 magnets and were a little brighter but lower powered than the later Alnico5 ones.

[classicrock]

X's version was used in the sound track of the movie Major League. I prefer the sound on the second solo at the end of the song.

YouTube - ‪Major League 2...

[Strummerson]

Thanks c-rock.

Dynas at 1:38

P90s in the outro at 4:05.

Whaddya all think?

Kent Armstrong P90s only run $70-85 a pop. Pretty affordable. If the only difference between an Armstrong P90 and a Dyna is a tick or two of a tone knob, this is a very affordable way to upgrade.

[Strummerson]

So, no one wants to weigh in on the differences, or lack thereof, between Dynas and P90s?

Zoom's got a lot of credibility with me. I've been dreaming of owning a Dyna guitar and a P90 guitar. If the right guitar can split the difference, then skint ole Strum will be a happy noisemaker. For instance, nab a Korean Casino ($400-500) at a good price and see if I can get T-Armonds in a P90 dogear mount (they come in soapbars, but maybe the cover could be switched).

[foppy]

I can hear a difference between the two in that song but a lot of what I'm hearing is the mix I think, and the type of solo-- the first solo sounds cooler, with double-stops and more hysteria, while the second sounds like a more conventional, thick-note rock and roll solo.

I like the first solo sound much, much better but it's very hard for me to separate the bare sound of the pickup from what the player and the producer are doing.

[foppy]

Also, I own an Edwards Les Paul with Seymour Duncan P-90s and a Country Club with stock dynas, and I like the sound of the Club better. Two very different guitars though.

To me, the P-90s in the LP sound, again, thicker (but with plenty of nice detail because they are single-coil and hence are without the flatness and muddiness of humbuckers).

The dynas to me sound more distinctive, very three-dimensional with a slight hint of a nasal quality that's not thin but edgy and aggressive.

I'm not much better at describing these differences than I would be at describing wines. Also I've had my perceptions shaped by what people say. And I haven't fiddled with the tone knobs to try to make the two pickups sound similar, and haven't recorded with them much. But I do hear two distinct tones with these pickups.

[Ricochet]

I never tried Dynas but they look cumbersome to adjust, and from construction POV they're a disaster. Could be that simple as to why EC changed his out?

Up till the early 70s I don't think many guys were motivated by hard scientific googling as to which PU could deliver the tones they were chasing. Tonechasing(particularly PU swapping) as we know it now, wasn't even born yet.

[WATThouse]

I put a Seymour Duncan Antiquity P-90 with “Dog Ear” cover on a Hamer Special and it was a fantastic upper-mid chime sound that got thick in all the right places when I dug into it. I didn't need a overdrive box at the time because it worked great with just the volume knob. I had a treble-bleed cap on the volume knob. I had a good Matchless Dirtbox, but that pickup had the magical chime to grind thing going on. Probably my all-time favorite tone. Now some lucky joker got it from a pawnshop. Great pickup, great guitar.

[Lizardkinged]

Personally, at this point. I would just as soon choose my Duncan Vintage wound P-90's over a dyna configuration. In my opinion, if you just dial down the volume on the p-90, you can easily get some of the dyna qualities I hear people go on and on about, or crank them and still have a decent rock pup.

[funnyorangeguitar]

Originally Posted by Strummerson

This of course then begs the question of why Eddie Cochran replaced his neck Dyna with a P90...

Good point, but he must have been happy with the Dyna for lead breaks.

[funnyorangeguitar]

oh yes this was interesting with the Alnico V P90 "staple" pickup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXUAfM-xvX0

[The Marlin]

Originally Posted by funnyorangeguitar

oh yes this was interesting with the Alnico V P90 "staple" pickup

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXUAfM-xvX0

These video links never work on the iPhone app. Wish they would sort it out. I use my iPhone for 80% of my time here.

Mr Marlin

[HHudson]

Saw and enjoyed that thread too.. I don't think he really meant == but close. Later on he goes on to say "Staples sound kind of like a cross between a P90 and DeArmond", which would suggest a bit of room in between. He says the similar things about Rick single coils else where.. and 6-8K HiGains with a bypassed bridge cap I find do sound quite a bit like P90's, despite the ceramic magnets.

The thing is with p90's they're all over the place sound wise, both new and old gibby P90s. Henrytwang is right, there were different magnets used, some time in the early 60's Gibson started using Alinco 5s consistently for everything. There are some articles by Seymour Duncan and the pickup Guru from PRS (his name escapes me at the moment). When they were researching to recapture the 50's P90 and HB tone (both PUs use the same magnets, albeit 2 in a P90 and one in a HB), they found in the purchase records that Gibson pretty much used any type of Alnico magnets they happened to get, what was in any pickup was pretty much pure chance. The same for the windings, "looked right" or "looked full enough" I think were the answers they got from Seth and winders of the time.

Lollar, Fralin, TV, Mills, Duncan etc.. all use various magnets and windings in their takes on various types of P90s.

Because the Alnico 5 magnets have a big bottom and top end and scooped mids, they can probably get pretty close to a Dyna (which also uses Alnico V poles I believe)... questions in another thread here which lead to googling recently got me "in trouble" and probably earned me jackweed status for buying a git because it was my first e-guitar, I found an early 60's ES-125tc for a reasonable price... I'm pretty sure the neck pickup has Alinco V magnets, and it gets in the ballpark of a T'Armond, especially when not clean. Clean the Dynas have something special going ... to me at least less mids, more wire both on the bottom and top. If you listen to some of Darrel Highams recordings (he retrofits everything with Bridge Dyna, Neck P90) or compare some of Paul Pigats P90 and Dyna recordings perhaps you will hear what I think I do.

I have a thing for all three P90's, Staples and Dynas .. great pickups. I didn't like the Epiphone P90's which came with the Korean Epi Zephyr Blues, way too over wound and muddy. I picked up a cheap set of Kent Armstrongs (KA pickups are not always KAs.. I have a set of the Korean made KA by Sky, they are a lot better than the Epis, but a bit sterile - there are other KA which are hand wound and use selected magnets... which are probably the ones Billy was referring to). The Epi project is on hold, until the Lollars from Megabutter make their way across the big pond.

cu!
Henry