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Monty · July 20th, 2012, 05:45 AM

Hi there,
Why am I here ? I have arrived here out of sheer desperation ! Some three years back I purchased an Electromatic G5120, (125 year Anniversary Edition) brand new, from a local music emporium !

Apart from problems with the intonation, particularly on the third string (where I have tried both wound and plain strings) I have been unhappy with the overall sound !

The top end (B & E string) is thin and reedy, and the bottom end, (5th and 6th) sort of "booms"; that's the only way I can describe the sound; the 5th also seems to feed back individually, as if it has a mind of its own. The tone controls seem to do very little to actually make much difference to the sound at all ?!

I have tried various amps (Marshall AS100D / Roland Cube) and various settings, but am still unhappy with the sound produced, particularly when visiting "Open Mic" venues where one's control over the gear in use is limited !

It has got to the point where the guitar sits in its case, or on its stand, and looks pretty, which it undoubtedly is. I have taken it out a couple of times to local gigs in the last few weeks, just to check out other players views, and most of them seem to think I'm being fussy, ......... but then they don't have to play the thing !

I have googled the issue and spotted a lot of info about changing the pickups,........... not something I wish to do, (why buy a Gretsch and then spend more money on upgrading it, when it may have been cheaper to go up market in the first place?) and I also spotted some conflicting tales, on various guitar forums, relating to adjusting the height of the pickups, or even adjusting the individual pole pieces.

I owned a Gretsch Corvette way back in the 60s, when I played with a beat group, (I should have hung onto it, eh?) and have always fancied owning another Gretsch guitar, ............ don't ask why, ............. retirement, late life crisis, whatever, ........... sadly this one has left me somewhat disillusioned, so if there is anybody out there who can point me in the right direction I would be really grateful, otherwise it will be a part-ex back at the local emporium.

jflintmac · July 20th, 2012, 06:37 AM

There is a huge difference between a hollow body and a solid body guitar. Setting that aside for a moment though, lets look at your other guitars that you don't have issues with.
Is your Stratocaster a Bullet?
Did your Les Paul come from China?
If so, are either of those guitars stock? Not too likely. It is really not realistic to expect any entry level guitar to deliver professional results without a whole bunch of tweeking on your part, so your choices are to either do the work or pay someone else to do it for you. In other words - buy a high end, professional level instrument.
Personally, I can't afford that so I am willing to do the work that needs to be done.
A hollow-body guitar is tempermental by nature. A Gretsch is no different than any other HB. The trick is to do what ever is needed to get the job done. 3 days out of the week we are all struggling with the same issues as you have described. All that additional effort is to get that number down as low as possible. Some musicians can't just park their hollow bodies on the stage and pick up an axe. Their performance depends on making that guitar work the best they can, no matter what the weather is like and no matter how big the stage is. It takes effort and experience. Even if they do buy high end equipment, they can't just expect it to perform for them. They have to prepare for the show. So do I and so do you. It will work if it is important to you, but it isn't free and it isn't easy.
Sorry to be so blunt but I am just being honest.
To me, it is worth the effort.

Uncle Daddy · July 20th, 2012, 07:50 AM

For a £550-£600 guitar, I don't see the 5120 as "entry level" when in fact it's much better made than every entry level guitar I've tried. It does, however, have notoriously dark sounding pickups, that may well suit a "jazz" tone but do little for blues or rockabilly sounds. Gretsch seem to have finally acknowledged this with the new 54xx range with Blacktop Filtertrons, but if you have one of the older models there are various options open,.
1. Learn to live with the tone (probably the hardest option)
2. Try modifying pup and pole heights al la http://www.gretsch-talk.com/forum/el...e-adj-mod.html
3. Spend a little cash. About £100 gets you a pair of true Filtertrons, surrounds and a mounting kit from Ripley. A little less will get you a pair of GFS pups.
4. Spend a lot of cash and get a set of TV Jones.
5. Sell up, and buy a Proline!

I tried option 2 for a while , and certainly got an improvement tha I could live with. Then I bought a 5126, which is now my "go-to" strummer, leaving the 5120 as a modding platform. Filtertrons are now here, and just waiting for the mounts. These transform 5120's into a fire breathing, rip snorting beast! Bring it on, I say.

Oh yeah, make sure you fit 11's. Anything else tens to make these things sound weak and feeble!

nadles · July 20th, 2012, 08:11 AM

Hi Monty, welcome to the forum.

The link below may be of assistance. It outlines some adjustments to the Grteschbuckers to improve clarity and balance.

http://www.gretsch-talk.com/forum/el...djustment.html

I fitted Filtertron's to my 5120 which gives it the "great Gretsch sound".

I fitted a Compton bridge to my 5120 - so no intonation problems.

polishbroadcast · July 20th, 2012, 09:24 AM

Intonation: you need to adjust the bridge saddle on the 3rd string to intonate correctly. If you still have issues, it could be a poorly cut nut. I put a Space Control bridge on my 5122. It was cheap and it works great (also, no rattles).

Top and bottom string imbalance: Probably a combination of string gauge, pole heights, and the fact that the Gretschbuckers aren't high quality.

Sound: the pickups in the 5120 simply aren't very good. You'll find dozens of threads of people upgrading the pickups. They aren't true "Gretsch Sound" pickups. Fortunately you don't have to spend much to upgrade. Uncle Daddy gave you great options (i'm partial to the HS Filtertrons myself, i have them in a 6118) and i would only add that the GFS Surf 90 is extremely affordable and on par sonically with Gretsch Dynasonics. I put some in my 5122 and it made it a real player. The good news with those is there is 0 modification needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty

why buy a Gretsch and then spend more money on upgrading it, when it may have been cheaper to go up market in the first place?

Exactly. You answered your own question. It is a better value to get a Proline Gretsch in the long run, but the 5120 & 5122 are really well made and can be brought up to a pro level with a few hardware swaps. You can A. continue to struggle with the pickups, B. sell the guitar and get a 6118 or 6120, or C. put some new pickups in it. A. is depressing. B. is desirable if you have the time to invest in selling and hunting for a used Proline. C. is the most satisfying for the least amount of time and money investment.

Uncle Daddy · July 20th, 2012, 09:44 AM

Plus 1 on GFS Surf 90's. The only reason I went for filtertrons in the end is cos I already have the 5126 with Dearmonds. Had I not, I'd have gone for these like a shot.

Roll on UPS!

pilgrim · July 20th, 2012, 10:44 AM

Hey every one has to stat some where but those are entry level guitars. I have case that sell for more than those guitars. But any good tech that will listen to you can help you get closer to the sound you want without spending a fortune. Good luck as you seek your sound.

Uncle Daddy · July 20th, 2012, 11:17 AM

These are upto 30% more expensive in the UK than in the US, and worse in Oz and NZ. Would you call $1000 entry level? Here an entry level guitar is £150/$200. Squier Tele anyone?

jflintmac · July 20th, 2012, 11:18 AM

Yes they are entry level guitars. That is "Entry level Gretsch Hollow body Guitars"
But what that does mean is that there is some real potential for them to really be a decent quality instrument.
Take out the electronics, and there is not a huge amount of difference, structurally speaking. The major differences are in what follows. Each step along the way in fit and finish, better quality hardwares that are a lot about looks and a little about function.
Intonation issues are not a right of passage limitted to affordable guitars only. If the frets are cut in the proper spot, and the truss rod works, any guitar can be made to sound really great if set up properly. There is no reason why a 5120 should have to sound or play like a lessor instrument given the body and neck that they are built from.
With that said, our guitars are what we make of them.
Their financial value has little to do with it, more or less.
Pickups, and set-up are everything. (and a decent amp)

NickGretsch · July 20th, 2012, 12:52 PM

Welcome to G- T Forum Monty.

If you read through some old posts on 5120's and their inherant problems then I hope you'll realise that you're not alone.

You'll get a lot of help and advice here from folks who have been where you are now. Generally I think you'll find once you've upgraded pickups( which doesn't have to cost a fortune) and added a Compton bridge your issues should be sorted hopefully. Even if it means getting a guitar tech to do it.

The other avenue is to sell your present Gretsch and get the new G5420 which is believed to be a big improvement, especially the pickups.

There are options but only you can decide which is best for you. One way or the other a Gretsch is a great and unique guitar. So please persivere.

Let us know how you get on and what you decide to do

polishbroadcast · July 20th, 2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Daddy

These are upto 30% more expensive in the UK than in the US, and worse in Oz and NZ. Would you call $1000 entry level? Here an entry level guitar is £150/$200. Squier Tele anyone?

For Gretsch it is. Based on Allans Billy Hyde (sorry i don't know any good dealers, just first one i found) here is how the range breaks down:

Australia
5120 = $1100
5122 = $1300
6118 = ???
6120 Atkins = $3500
6136 W Falcon = $4900

US
5120 = $700
5122 = $750
6118 = $1400
6120 Atkins = $2275
6136 W Falcon = $3100

So the "entry level" Gretsch is about 1/2 of what the cheapest proline is, at least in the US. I couldn't find a 6118 price in Australia but the pricing looks to follow the same pattern as the US.

Sure, if you need a bolt-on neck solidbody on a budget, then you get a $150 Telecaster. The nearest budget equivalent to a hollowbody Gretsch might be an Artcore AF75T for $550 US.

gabbo · July 20th, 2012, 11:00 PM

Welcome Monty!

I too was not impressed with the Gretschbuckers and like countless others, I switched them out for something better.

I was also pretty tentative about adding new pickups as it seemed like it was going to be a huge chore that I was not sure I was ready for.

I watched a video of Thomas Jones made showing every step of the way how to add his TV Jones classics into a 5120. It was a brilliant move on his part, as it gave me the courage to do it and he got my business (TV Jones are kinda pricey). It only took a few hours to do, and that was at a snail's pace because I was being overly cautious. Before you knew it, they were installed and it was really very easy to do.

The sound is a completely new guitar and it holds its own against many of my "pro" guitars.

Some people do make a point, if money is not terribly hard to come by, you may want to sell it, and save up for a pro-line. If money is a concern, change the pickups. The 5120 is too nice of a guitar to give up on.

Synchro · July 20th, 2012, 11:42 PM

A lot of new members here join after buying a 5120 and, in many cases, they end up dissatisfied with the Gretsch humbuckers. They are large footprint humbuckers with wide bobbin spacing which tends to give a muddy sound. My G3161 sounded great for Jazz but was too dark for anything else.

The 5120 is a very respectable guitar. They are well made, sound good acoustically and have great potential. The pickups are the weak link IMHO and the Gretsch sound is a lot easier to get if you replace these pickups. TV Jones is the way to go if you can afford it. If not, a set of GFS Surf 90s might help.

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jflintmac · July 21st, 2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

These are upto 30% more expensive in the UK than in the US, and worse in Oz and NZ. Would you call $1000 entry level? Here an entry level guitar is £150/$200. Squier Tele anyone?

Not to whip a dead horse here but,
This entire thread is about "hollow body Gretsch guitars." If you can show me a model that is more affordable than the 5120, I will then call that the "entry level" Gretsch.

I never said the 5120 was a POS, or one of the cheapest guitars on the face of the planet. On the contrary. I own a 5120. It is a pretty darned good guitar with a lot of potential. However, the word "Potential" is just a polite way of saying - room for growth, or "work that hasn't been done - Yet"
In fact, most guitars are built for the masses. There aren't many production guitars that live on to infamy as stock, even top of the line models need to be set up to suite the performer's specific needs. Sometimes this includes some fairly extensive mods.

Synchro · July 21st, 2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jflintmac

Not to whip a dead horse here but,
This entire thread is about "hollow body Gretsch guitars." If you can show me a model that is more affordable than the 5120, I will then call that the "entry level" Gretsch.

I never said the 5120 was a POS, or one of the cheapest guitars on the face of the planet. On the contrary. I own a 5120. It is a pretty darned good guitar with a lot of potential. However, the word "Potential" is just a polite way of saying - room for growth, or "work that hasn't been done - Yet"
In fact, most guitars are built for the masses. There aren't many production guitars that live on to infamy as stock, even top of the line models need to be set up to suite the performer's specific needs. Sometimes this includes some fairly extensive mods.

IMO, it is the entry level of the Gretsch hollow body line but a very good quality guitar. I've seen ES-175s that played no better than a 5120.

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jflintmac · July 21st, 2012, 08:50 AM

Quote:

IMO, it is the entry level of the Gretsch hollow body line but a very good quality guitar. I've seen ES-175s that played no better than a 5120.

Absolutely!
But it really doesn't matter, so much, where you start from. What really counts is where you end up.
I've played and built guitars for many years. I have a few mid level Stratocasters that prove absolutely that point. I've never lost a customer. If I could play as well as I build, I wouldn't have to work for musicians anymore

I must admit thoough that I am realitively new to Gretsch guitars, but the rules are just the same. You have to put function above form. It is not much good if you can't use it.

Monty · July 21st, 2012, 02:08 PM

Having read all your responses, for which I thank you, I will now spend a few hours/days, twiddling with the pickup height and pole adjustment, then if I am not satisfied I will head for the local guitar emporium and look for a trade in.

I am not going to bother with the TV Jones (or any other) upgrade, as I have no way of knowing, for sure, if spending that kind of money will obtain the sound I am looking for. Good money after bad and all that sort of stuff.

I must mention that for the 60s style (Weedonesque for UK readers) instrumentals this is a really good guitar,........... but sadly I don't do too much of that sort of stuff nowadays, here are a couple of examples of my5120 being used in the 60s instrumental mode,..........

You Tube

You Tube

You may or may not agree, but playing apart, the sound is quite acceptable. Those two tracks were put together in my "Play Room". The guitar just does not hold up when accompanying other players in public performances, especially when being used as a rhythm guitar,......... it gets lost .

I will let you know what happens with my twiddling with the pickups just as soon as I have something to report.

Thanks one and all for your input.

polishbroadcast · July 21st, 2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty

I am not going to bother with the TV Jones (or any other) upgrade, as I have no way of knowing, for sure, if spending that kind of money will obtain the sound I am looking for.

Out of curiosity, what sound are you looking for? It would be helpful to know that when looking for another guitar.

I have no doubt you would get better definition and tone from any of the pickups mentioned (Surf 90s, HS Filtertrons, TV Jones) but a trade-in isn't a bad way to go if you know what you are upgrading to.

Great playing BTW. I hear you about the sound of the Gretschbuckers: they are pretty dark / muddy which can be troublesome once you start layering other instruments in.

FWIW here is a 5122 (double cut version of the 5120) w/ GFS Surf 90's:
http://soundcloud.com/spiesteleviv/suflp-dmo/s-yLxOF

My 6118 w/ HS Filtertrons gets a very similar sound.

Monty · July 27th, 2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polishbroadcast

Out of curiosity, what sound are you looking for? It would be helpful to know that when looking for another guitar.

I have no doubt you would get better definition and tone from any of the pickups mentioned (Surf 90s, HS Filtertrons, TV Jones) but a trade-in isn't a bad way to go if you know what you are upgrading to.

Great playing BTW. I hear you about the sound of the Gretschbuckers: they are pretty dark / muddy which can be troublesome once you start layering other instruments in.

FWIW here is a 5122 (double cut version of the 5120) w/ GFS Surf 90's:
http://soundcloud.com/spiesteleviv/suflp-dmo/s-yLxOF

My 6118 w/ HS Filtertrons gets a very similar sound.

It's one of those "Intangibles" init?

I'll know the sound when I hear it.

I have listened to the track you posted and have to admit that it is indeed a very nice sound, but I have come to a decision with regards to the 5120.

Having spent the best part of two evenings twiddling with adjustable pickup heights and adjustable pole pieces, I have been unable to achieve any really noticeable change in the overall sound produced.

I am not saying that the pickups and poles were not adjustable, just that adjusting them didn't make much of a difference.

So, ........... I'm off to the local emporium sometime this weekend to have a shufti at what's on offer.

The 5420T and the 5422TDC seem to be worth a look, if not then I'll have to have another think about the issue.

polishbroadcast · July 27th, 2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty

I am not saying that the pickups and poles were not adjustable, just that adjusting them didn't make much of a difference.

That was essentially my point: Gretschbuckers aren't going to give you much clear twangyness ... regardless of adjustments. The only way to get a better sound is swap the pickups (what i did) or get another guitar.