[Monty]

Way back in about '98, I purchased a Washburn Festival EA20 Electro-acoustic, and after having it set up, I have been really happy with it.

The factory inspection label that was attached to it quoted fret heights, tuning and finishing, and the names of the guys responsible.

Back in '09 I purchased a G5120 and it came complete with a virtually identical label, it was even signed by one of the same guys who's name had been on the Washburn label more than 10 years previously !

Now that so many guitars are made in Korea, and other "far-off" lands, as part of the "keeping the costs down and the profits up" programme, much of the "Romance", if that's the right word, of the old brand names seems to have gone out of the window ?

Are all these guitars made under the same roof by the same blokes, using the same materials, then at the end of the process they just stick different brand names on the various items ?

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by Monty

Way back in about '98, I purchased a Washburn Festival EA20 Electro-acoustic, and after having it set up, I have been really happy with it.

The factory inspection label that was attached to it quoted fret heights, tuning and finishing, and the names of the guys responsible.

Back in '09 I purchased a G5120 and it came complete with a virtually identical label, it was even signed by one of the same guys who's name had been on the Washburn label more than 10 years previously !

Now that so many guitars are made in Korea, and other "far-off" lands, as part of the "keeping the costs down and the profits up" programme, much of the "Romance", if that's the right word, of the old brand names seems to have gone out of the window ?

Are all these guitars made under the same roof by the same blokes, using the same materials, then at the end of the process they just stick different brand names on the various items ?

Factories build to spec for any number of guitar companies. The Terada factory produced Japanese D'Angelicos f'r instance.

[dgshooter]

I used to question the "inspected by NO.7" tags in my packages of underware too.

[MoonshineCalbilly]

Maybe B. H. Gil is to Korea what Joe Smith is to the U. S.

Sorry, I gave a poor example. Just an extraordinarily common name perhaps?

[polishbroadcast]

Originally Posted by Monty

Are all these guitars made under the same roof by the same blokes, using the same materials, then at the end of the process they just stick different brand names on the various items ?

Depends on what you mean by "all these guitars". There are a few major asian factories, but yes, a factory may produce guitars for many different brands. People are getting hip to this though, and are noticing (and communicating) that Peerless Epiphones are top notch, Terada Gretsches are top of the line, etc. Maybe the parent brands will embrace it eventually? Peerless saw the opportunity and they now make their own guitars under the Peerless banner which are astounding.

The factories in Asia that i know are: Eastman (not sure of the actual factory name), Sammick, Terada, and Peerless. Every single one i've owned has been fantastic. The Epiphone Casinos coming out of China right now are also unbelievably awesome.

[Gotone]

Yep. Cort and Samick do an awful lot of private labeling. For instance take a D'Armond M77T (with the 2k pickups made in the USA) from 1998 or thereabouts and it was made by Cort in Korea. Great guitar. I think you'd be surprised by how many big brands/names do the private labeling route. If Fender Epiphone, or whoever approaches these manufacturers, it comes down to them basically saying "what can you do for X dollars". Cort or Samick will answer we can do that in Korea, or if really cheap, in their Asian factories. Therefore you see varying degrees of quality in Korean, Indonesian or Chinese produced guitars.

[drmilktruck]

Japan - Korea - China - Indonesia or India. Priced high to low. If you want to get into the business yourself, there are web distributors who will send you a dozen guitars made to your specs with your name on it.

[polishbroadcast]

Originally Posted by drmilktruck

there are web distributors who will send you a dozen guitars made to your specs with your name on it.

One Chinese factory called Yunzhi will make you a custom carved guitar to your specs. I did it and really liked the result (despite my lukewarm post on that board, i've fixed all the issues):
password protected url removed. photo below.

[dgshooter]

Originally Posted by polishbroadcast

One Chinese factory called Yunzhi will make you a custom carved guitar to your specs. I did it and really liked the result (despite my lukewarm post on that board, i've fixed all the issues):
http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/foru...html#msg235697

I would like to see the guitar. However the site you linked to requires registration.

[polishbroadcast]

Originally Posted by dgshooter

I would like to see the guitar. However the site you linked to requires registration.

Oh weird. Sorry. Here it is:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-C...0/DSCF6123.jpg

[Gotone]

Originally Posted by polishbroadcast

One Chinese factory called Yunzhi will make you a custom carved guitar to your specs. I did it and really liked the result (despite my lukewarm post on that board, i've fixed all the issues):
http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/foru...html#msg235697

Personally, I delete those emails from China on an almost daily basis at the shop. Don't get me wrong, the product may be slightly alright. But if you can't control the quality (woods used, measurements, wiring, pots, etc.) which most can't, I know I wouldn't be able to look at a customer who has spent $0000's in your store in the face. IMHO.

[polishbroadcast]

Originally Posted by Gotone

Personally, I delete those emails from China on an almost daily basis at the shop. Don't get me wrong, the product may be slightly alright. But if you can't control the quality (woods used, measurements, wiring, pots, etc.) which most can't, I know I wouldn't be able to look at a customer who has spent $0000's in your store in the face. IMHO.

What emails?

Yunzhi was formed by ex-Eastman folks. I don't have a store either.

I think I'm missing the point of your message.

[Gotone]

Originally Posted by polishbroadcast

What emails?

Yunzhi was formed by ex-Eastman folks. I don't have a store either.

I think I'm missing the point of your message.

I guess the point is this. If a person can properly spec out all of the details to the nth degree, then you probably will get a decent guitar. Whether the builders in China are ex-Eastman or not, these guys will cut corners and you will only see the extent they do this until you have to service one of them.

Where I'm coming from is this. I get regular emails, from dozens of "builders" out of China saying "we are number one builder of guitars" can we build some for you. As a guitar store owner 1) I would not risk the $ investment on product that didn't meet my specs, unless I was over there, or had someone over there to oversee production..that means full-time and time and money. 2) filling a container is a lot of guitars. 3) assuming you don't have a person in China to do the quality control and you get a container that contains 50% bad product, what do you do? Chances are you won't find out until a few have been sold and are comebacks. 4) Ones reputation is on the line. And the list goes on and on and on.

I'll let the big brands deal with all these issues. Now, if you got a guitar out of China direct and are happy with it...great! From a guy who sells Gretsch, Fender, Gibson, Taylor, Martin, etc. , I can't afford to do what you did. So I'm just presenting another perspective.

[polishbroadcast]

Originally Posted by Gotone

I guess the point is this. If a person can properly spec out all of the details to the nth degree, then you probably will get a decent guitar. Whether the builders in China are ex-Eastman or not, these guys will cut corners and you will only see the extent when you have to service one of them.

Where I'm coming from is this. I get regular emails, from dozens of "builders" out of China saying "we are number one builder of guitars" can we build some for you. As a guitar store owner 1) I would not risk the $ investment on product that didn't meet my specs, unless I was over there, or had someone over there to oversee production. 2)

I've never gotten one of those emails so can't comment. This builder was recommended to me by some other people that have had guitars built. I wasn't advocating that anyone should do it themselves, because yes, you have to be able to clearly communicate what you want, or be ok with the stock models they have. My point of posting was not to debate the merits of long-distance custom guitars, or you personally purchasing them for your store, rather it was to address the idea of Asian factories that build to whatever specs you want, whether you are Fender Inc, or Joe Shmoe. drmilktruck mentioned how there are places that will make a guitar to your specs and i was relaying my personal experience with it.

Eastman has done a good job of combining the low cost of labor and high craftsmanship of Chinese luthiers with the quality control oversight needed for Western markets and to avoid the corner-cutting you mention. All of the big name companies have as well (Fender, Epiphone, PRS, Parker, Gretsch, etc. etc.). So, sorry for the tangent; i think it is an interesting time for guitars, it is unbelievable how many good and affordable guitars there are today, and yes Asia is making most of the guitars being made.

[Synchro]

As I understand it, a company like Gretsch or Gibson (Epiphone) can order guitars to their spec. If they want to put their brand name on a cheesy piece of junk they can do that and have a guitar that sells for very little. They could also choose to specify a top of the line instrument with select wood and high end features. Remember, they've been building violin family instruments in China for a very long time and they have luthiers with a skill level that would easily allow the building of fine guitars. The company marketing the guitars, Gretsch, etc, determines the quality and, of course, has the right to inspect, accept or reject the instruments produced.

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[Monty]

That's me, fully informed then, eh chaps ?

I must admit to not having been in the "loop" with regards to this particular issue, thanks for all the clarification.

[ishtar]

Regarding the "romance", we're building and nurturing the Gretsch romance here. There is nothing intrinsically different between any two objects, as far as I'm concerned, because that rock over there and that 6120 will, more than likely, be around long after I am dust. The difference is between me and everything else, and maybe that's an illusion and the rock and guitar will join me in nothingness somehow.

So I am looking at that wood and wire over there and saying, "You are such a beautiful guitar! You feel and sound so good!"

It's me. I'm making the romance.

Don't confuse GAS for romance, whatever you do.

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by ishtar

Regarding the "romance", we're building and nurturing the Gretsch romance here. There is nothing intrinsically different between any two objects, as far as I'm concerned, because that rock over there and that 6120 will, more than likely, be around long after I am dust. The difference is between me and everything else, and maybe that's an illusion and the rock and guitar will join me in nothingness somehow.

So I am looking at that wood and wire over there and saying, "You are such a beautiful guitar! You feel and sound so good!"

It's me. I'm making the romance.

Don't confuse GAS for romance, whatever you do.

At the end of the day, all guitars, no matter the lineage, are wood and wires. With enough time, patience and skill a person could reproduce the finest original D'Angelico perfectly. So, why would a guitar hand built by D'Angelico be worth more than an identical instrument built by an obscure luthier? It probably boils down to romance or something like it. The idea of John D'Angelico toiling in a shop on Kenmore St, plays a part in the appeal but that, in itself, doesn't actually make the guitar sound better. There are probably hundreds of people that are every bit as skilled as D'Angelico but they might very well be unknown outside of a limited circle of people.

I am convinced that the roots of GAS lie in frustration. When I'm playing in a band GAS disappears because I don't need to fantasize about playing a guitar from outside my collection. I played a short gig last night and brought two nice Gretsch Pro Series guitars. The bottom line of which one I played came down to weight. The Country Gent was heavier, therefore more tiring than the 6120 DC so I ended up playing the 6120. There's no room for GAS or romance when the gig starts.

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[Gotone]

Originally Posted by Synchro

At the end of the day, all guitars, no matter the lineage, are wood and wires. With enough time, patience and skill a person could reproduce the finest original D'Angelico perfectly. So, why would a guitar hand built by D'Angelico be worth more than an identical instrument built by an obscure luthier? It probably boils down to romance or something like it. The idea of John D'Angelico toiling in a shop on Kenmore St, plays a part in the appeal but that, in itself, doesn't actually make the guitar sound better. There are probably hundreds of people that are every bit as skilled as D'Angelico but they might very well be unknown outside of a limited circle of people.

I am convinced that the roots of GAS lie in frustration. When I'm playing in a band GAS disappears because I don't need to fantasize about playing a guitar from outside my collection. I played a short gig last night and brought two nice Gretsch Pro Series guitars. The bottom line of which one I played came down to weight. The Country Gent was heavier, therefore more tiring than the 6120 DC so I ended up playing the 6120. There's no room for GAS or romance when the gig starts.

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I agree with most of what you say Synchro. However, I have been faced with the issue of a customer potentially paying $2400 for a Chinese made Eastman or for a little bit cheaper, a Gretsch 6120 or a Gibson ES335. Guess what sells? Customers determine where the perceived value is in a guitar or an amp, regardless of how good a sales person is. Up here in Canada, you have no idea how many customers think that a Fender isn't a Fender unless it has a "Made in the USA" label on it. It's astounding really. Alternatively, a lot of people think that Gretsch is still made in the USA, but when they are told Made in Japan, that's ok or even better. I've seen people turn down buying the Bogner amp of their dreams for $2400 because when they look at the back of the amp they see "Made in China" on it and refuse to buy it. Again perceived value. Most people who can afford the $ for good equipment, are very informed as to who makes the stuff and consequently will base their buying decisions accordingly. Fwiw, I have a tremendous respect for some off-shore produced product. But that product needs to prove itself to the consumer and not be swayed by slick ads in a guitar magazine or a customer being subjected to a sales guy in a store saying "you gotta buy this because" and the because is because they're over-stocked, it's not selling and they're pushing the sale on to a customer. If I digress I apologize.

[jbcallender]

Originally Posted by dgshooter

I used to question the "inspected by NO.7" tags in my packages of underware too.

No. 7 is a very versatile and talented guy. I had his tag in underwear, a couple of pairs of pants, a sawz-all and two weedeaters.