[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

Hello all. A couple months back I got a sweet deal on a used White Penguin. First thing I did was swap out the stock synchromatic or sonic bridge with melita base for my Electromatic's Ti/TC on an ebony base I got from Darren Riley. It made a world of difference. Then, since a Gretsch needs a bigsby, I replaced the Cadillac G Tailpiece with a B3G V-cut. Its on straight and lined up. That made it sound even better! It looks gorgeous.
Now, my problem I always had was with buzzing which I thought was fret buzz. But after trouble shooting it for the second time with my luthier, he suspects the buzz/rattle is not from fret buzz but from not enough tension over the bridge. He says it sounds like a problem on a strat that is fixed with a string tree.
He thinks the break angle is to low so its not applying enough tension and the strings behind the bridge is what's buzzing.

What can I do to add tension or mute the string vibration behind the bridge? I've seen images of black circles connecting the strings back there. Would that do it?
The bigsby came with a 3/8" spring. I'm afraid if I add a 1" spring, the handle will be to far up.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

Attached fotos.

[dilver]

Sweet Penguin and good call on the V-cut Bigsby - looks awesome. The break angle of the strings isn't as shallow as some that I've seen, but its hard to tell if thats whats causing the buzzing. The "black dots" you've seen on some guitars are rubber grommets that are used to dampen the strings to stop ghost tones that sometimes occur between the bridge and the tailpiece. It's easy enough to check if that's your problem... Just mute the strings in that area with your picking hand or stick some wadded up tissue paper in between the strings to see if that stops the buzzing. If it does you can then find a more aesthetic solution. Good luck!

[stevo]

Which is the final bridge? The on on the top picture or the one on the bottom picture?

Also, when strings behind the bridge make noise, it's usually a little bit of ringing, not buzz. Do you have a ring or a buzz?

But I wouldn't say it's due to your break angle.

[norton]

Two only way to deal with that kind of problem is to get a bigsby with a tension bar, or somehow affix the bigsby you have to the body. Either solution will result in screws into the top of your guitar.

I swapped out my bigsby for a b-12? With a tension bar. Made a HUGE difference in how the guitar responds....but the bigsby doesn't stay in tune for ****. every possible adjustment and tweak...by a pro who really knows bigsby's left it only marginally useful. Still the added string tension at the bridge really makes the guitar sing, and was worth the hassle.

Does your penguin rattle with the trapeze tailpiece on?

[johnnyguitar]

I'm not convinced this is your problem, and I wouldn't drill into the top of that beautiful guitar if I were you. There is a felt pad on the bottom of the bigsby. Make sure it is there and making contact with the guitar as that could cause buzzing. You may get a bit of ringing overtones from the strings behind the nut but not usually buzzing. Also check that there are no loose nuts & bolts on the Bigsby. And again tuning issues are almost always at the nut.

[tartanphantom]

HypotenusLuvTriangle, can you show us a profile side-shot photo of how the Bigsby hinge-mount sits at the rear edge of the top? If the hinge was mounted flush with the edge, that may be your problem. You should have a small gap between the guitar body and the underside of the bigsby at the point where the hinge sits. In other words, the tail end of the Bigsby (not the hinge itself) should NOT be flush with the rear edge of the top.

The break angle looks deep enough to me.

[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

Hey guys! Thanks for the responses

Originally Posted by stevo

Which is the final bridge? The one on the top picture or the one on the bottom picture?

Also, when strings behind the bridge make noise, it's usually a little bit of ringing, not buzz. Do you have a ring or a buzz?

-Both photos show the final setup with the Compton Bridge.
-Yes, it does sound like ringing but there also seems to be a buzz too. I don't really know how to explain it.

Originally Posted by norton

Does your penguin rattle with the trapeze tailpiece on?

-Yes, it was having some of the same issues. Adding the Compton and the Bigsby helped the problem a lot.

Originally Posted by johnnyguitar

I'm not convinced this is your problem, and I wouldn't drill into the top of that beautiful guitar if I were you. There is a felt pad on the bottom of the bigsby. Make sure it is there and making contact with the guitar as that could cause buzzing. You may get a bit of ringing overtones from the strings behind the nut but not usually buzzing. Also check that there are no loose nuts & bolts on the Bigsby. And again tuning issues are almost always at the nut.

-Yes, the felt pad on the bottom of the bigsby is securely connecting to the top of the guitar body.
-I do not seem to be having any major tuning issues with the nut when I wail on the bigsby. I will double check the nuts n bolts on the bigsby, but the guitar is with my luthier today and he's checking it over.

Originally Posted by tartanphantom

HypotenusLuvTriangle, can you show us a profile side-shot photo of how the Bigsby hinge-mount sits at the rear edge of the top? If the hinge was mounted flush with the edge, that may be your problem. You should have a small gap between the guitar body and the underside of the bigsby at the point where the hinge sits. In other words, the tail end of the Bigsby (not the hinge itself) should NOT be flush with the rear edge of the top.

The break angle looks deep enough to me.

-Ah, ok. So my bigsby is flush with the edge. It was able to line up with the original big strap screw from the Cadillac G tailpiece. Why exactly if its flush would that cause a problem? I don't have access to it right now to take a foto as its with my luthier who's checking it over.

Thank you so much for all the suggestions.

The reason he thinks its tension is because when you pull up on the bigsby, adding tension to the strings, the ringing overtones/buzz goes away somewhat. He looked it over for about 15 minutes last night and that's what he was thinking about. I will talk to him again later today or tomorrow.

However, even with this ringing and buzzing, the guitar STILL sounds amazing. and plays really well. Its just that some of the buzz/ring comes through the amp at a few places.

[tartanphantom]

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

-Ah, ok. So my bigsby is flush with the edge. It was able to line up with the original big strap screw from the Cadillac G tailpiece. Why exactly if its flush would that cause a problem?

Because you are mounting a flat piece of metal on a curved guitar top. It's like balancing a 2x4 on a bowling ball (but not quite as extreme). If you mount the rear of the Bigsby flush with the edge of the guitar, it causes the front end of the Bigsby (the spring end) to "float" on the top. This can cause all manner of rattles and buzzes, because the tension-bearing end of the Bigsby is not properly seated.

For guitars with a completely flat top, this is not an issue. but for most Gretsch models with the top sloping gently towards the rear, you need to mount the Bigsby so that the bottom of the hinge pin is level with the top of the guitar.

[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

Originally Posted by tartanphantom

Because you are mounting a flat piece of metal on a curved guitar top. It's like balancing a 2x4 on a bowling ball (but not quite as extreme). If you mount the rear of the Bigsby flush with the edge of the guitar, it causes the front end of the Bigsby (the spring end) to "float" on the top. This can cause all manner of rattles and buzzes, because the tension-bearing end of the Bigsby is not properly seated.

I can double check again, but the bigsby spring area isn't floating. But as I remember setting it up, its connected to the top and its pretty stable. Thank you for the explanation.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

-Both photos show the final setup with the Compton Bridge.
\

OK, so it's not the bridge. FWIW, the second picture doesn't show a Compton, that's why I asked.

[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

Originally Posted by stevo

OK, so it's not the bridge. FWIW, the second picture doesn't show a Compton, that's why I asked.

Um... yes it does. I took those two photos within 30 seconds of each other.

[tartanphantom]

have you checked for vibration between the pickguard and the pickup rings, and are all the mounting nuts on the potentiometers snugged down?

[stevo]

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

Um... yes it does. I took those two photos within 30 seconds of each other.

Maybe it's just the weirdness of the angle, but it really looks like it has mechanical pieces on it. But alas! It's a Compton and therefore, the bridge is not your issue. That would have been so easy...

[dazzajl]

Originally Posted by stevo

OK, so it's not the bridge. FWIW, the second picture doesn't show a Compton, that's why I asked.

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

Um... yes it does. I took those two photos within 30 seconds of each other.

The refections of the strings in the top of the Compton do make it look like a bridge with saddles. I thought they were different for a mo too.

A very beautiful looking guitar and whilst I can't offer much in the way of tech help here, I can tell you that the break angle looks pretty much the same as my jet. Which is impeccably behaved in all manners bigsby.

[HypotenusLuvTriangle]

Originally Posted by tartanphantom

have you checked for vibration between the pickguard and the pickup rings, and are all the mounting nuts on the potentiometers snugged down?

-No vibration between the Pickguard and Rings.
-I shall check the pot mounts and pup ring mount screws as well. Thank you.

Originally Posted by stevo

Maybe it's just the weirdness of the angle, but it really looks like it has mechanical pieces on it. But alas! It's a Compton and therefore, the bridge is not your issue. That would have been so easy...

-Haha. Yes. It would have been. Yeah, its the angle and string reflection making it look like saddles.

Originally Posted by dazzajl

A very beautiful looking guitar and whilst I can't offer much in the way of tech help here, I can tell you that the break angle looks pretty much the same as my jet. Which is impeccably behaved in all manners bigsby.

-Thank you much for the kind words. Yes, I always thought the break angle was normal. The white really keeps the scratches from showing up. The previous owner and the original bridge base scratched up that top something fierce.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by HypotenusLuvTriangle

-Haha. Yes. It would have been. Yeah, its the angle and string reflection making it look like saddles.

Ha ha. I went downstairs and looked at my Tenny with Compton and I can see how this came across that way. Very confusing for my little brain.

By the way - just a wonderful guitar. This or a PowerJet would be my next purchase.

There are probably some cool string dampeners out there, but I've also found that the little wedgie pick holders work quite well. You only need three:

http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/WEDGIE.htm

My guitar chimes like crazy at times since I put on the Compton bridge. I just played it a bunch and I think it's chime between the bridge and the Bigsby. I noticed that it has a slight rattle at times, but when you dampen that area, it stops.

[GretschGhost]

Originally Posted by stevo

Ha ha. I went downstairs and looked at my Tenny with Compton and I can see how this came across that way. Very confusing for my little brain.

By the way - just a wonderful guitar. This or a PowerJet would be my next purchase.

There are probably some cool string dampeners out there, but I've also found that the little wedgie pick holders work quite well. You only need three:

http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/WEDGIE.htm

My guitar chimes like crazy at times since I put on the Compton bridge. I just played it a bunch and I think it's chime between the bridge and the Bigsby. I noticed that it has a slight rattle at times, but when you dampen that area, it stops.

I noticed the bridge appears to be a bit far from the rear pickup. You should measure to be sure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret is the same as the 12th fret to the *center* of the bridge. This is necessary for a proper setup and intonation.

Assuming that is correct, you may want to try a few things. Felt under the spring in the Bigsby will eliminate that as a vibration issue, even if it's not the cause.

The retainer ring on the top part of the Bigsby can very often rattle if it's not solidly tight. This is easy and cheap to replace.

The bridge you're using is not ideal for a Bigsby. The Synchro-Sonic or a roller bridge, even the Tune-o-Matic style are more ideal. In all cases the string makes more surface area contact with the saddle.

If your concern is break angle, you can test it by simply raising the bridge, but I think it's the bridge that is actually the problem, just a first guess anyway.

We also need a clear description of where the buzz is coming from. To answer that, answer these:

1) Does it happen when the string is plucked open AND fretted?

2) Does it happen/not happen on certain frets or ranges of frets on the neck?

3) Does it happen on all strings? It's not likely a simple break angle issue if it happens on a specific string, spot, etc. It's more likely an overall setup issue.

4) If you rest your palm ON the bridge saddles and strum do you still hear the buzz? If so, the issue is likely with a neck setup issue.

5) Have you ever changed the height of any part of your pickups? Believe it or not, the magnetic field pulling on the string (too hard) can actually make it buzz. A simple solution is to lower the pole height. There is NO tone benefit or loss in to this; if it's causing a buzz it's too high.

6) Can you hear the buzz through your amplifier? When strings are open? Fretted? Mutted? If you can hear it when it's open, it could be anywhere on the guitar, almost. If you can't, but can hear it when it's fretted, it's likely a neck issue, maybe a truss rod adjustment, maybe something worse like a high fret. If you can hear it with the bridge muted, you at least know it's not likely a break angle issue.


Isolate the cause of the buzz, then isolate the ringing. They may resolve each other.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by GCGhost

I noticed the bridge appears to be a bit far from the rear pickup. You should measure to be sure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret is the same as the 12th fret to the *center* of the bridge. This is necessary for a proper setup and intonation.

The bridge you're using is not ideal for a Bigsby. The Synchro-Sonic or a roller bridge, even the Tune-o-Matic style are more ideal. In all cases the string makes more surface area contact with the saddle.

5) Have you ever changed the height of any part of your pickups? Believe it or not, the magnetic field pulling on the string (too hard) can actually make it buzz. A simple solution is to lower the pole height. There is NO tone benefit or loss in to this; if it's causing a buzz it's too high.

Hi GC,

Some points to think about:

Intonation: Looks about right to me. Any adjustments from this point should be done with a tuner, not a ruler. Not sure what this has to do with buzz.

"Ideal Bigsby Bridge": Note that it's a Compton bridge - removing it would be a step backward. And Tune-o-matics are terrible for buzz unless you know a couple of tricks. (I think he had a Melita.) But in general, people around here are sold on Comptons or Tru-Arcs for pretty much everything. Comptons are designed to work with Bigsby vibratos just fine! - they ranged from a dampend buzz to an all out ring.

My guess at this point is ghost vibrations between the saddles and Bigsby. I started noticing these after I installed my Compton. The easy fix is to thread a velcro cable tie in and out of the strings or thread some surgical tubing in and out of the strings. (After you filet it in half.) This provides ample dampening and I haven't heard the ringing or buzzing since.

Forget break angle at this point, you've got a cool setup. Even if break angle is the issue, dampening the strings as mentioned above is all you need to do. You'd have to raise those strings and that's not a good thing.

[bluenote23]

Though it's hard to tell from the angle of your photos, the break angle looks more or less the same as my Jets. On my Jets, the string break angle is not very extreme.

One spot that often buzzes on my Gretschs is the pickup selector switch. I have had two Gretschs where I get sympathetic buzzes when the switch is in the middle position but not in the up or down position.