Intonation issue with my ProJet

Big Burly · February 6th, 2010, 02:42 PM

I am not a big intonation snob, but I do like it close-ish.

I have never been able to intonate my ProJet on the E-A-D strings. On the AoM bridge, the saddles are all moved as close to the neck as possible, and it is still between -16 and -25 cents off. The saddles are turned to face the bridge and I can't get the screws to come out so I can switch them around to see if I can get closer.

I have a CCC for it, it intonates fine on the G-B-E strings. On the E-A-D strings it is still off, -14 to -19 cents.

So, any ideas? I raised and lowered the bass side of the bridge to try to get better intonation. No dice.

Do I need to have the stud moved by a luthier to get closer to proper intonation? Do I need to convert it to a floating bridge so I can move the base for better intonation?

Big Burly · February 6th, 2010, 02:44 PM

To reiterate, this is not an issue with the CCC, it is an issue with the placement of the bridge studs.

The problem was unsolvable with its original AoM bridge.

-PMK- · February 6th, 2010, 03:14 PM

I think you can either get a compensated nut or get the nut done so it gets little overhang over the fretboard.
What string thikness do you use?
I use 11 - 50 on my 5235 and G string is little off and saddel is at end position towards the nut.

Big Burly · February 6th, 2010, 03:27 PM

I use 11-50s as well.

Bengal65 · February 6th, 2010, 03:46 PM

What I would do is get a bridge, preferably an ABR type that the screws can come out. I have 3 Callahams (1 nickel and 2 Gold). They are expensive though, but do not use the wire and the screws and saddles snap in. Bill uses very high tolerences and billet steel for the bridge. The saddles are brass. A less expensive way to go would be going to StewMac or other places and get a Gotoh. They are still cast metal, but high quality. Get an ABR or Nashville style if you prefer.

Callaham: THe best out there for the money IMO.

workknot · February 6th, 2010, 04:10 PM

Some with the same problem have changed the string gauge and were able to get the guitar to intonate. That is what I would try and if that was not to my liking, then go ahead with some of the other suggestions.
One other possiblility would be to have me make one that did not have the setback on the base side of the bridge. Or, try a lefty model on there as that would be set back just the opposite of the right hand bridge.
Pop's

Big Burly · February 6th, 2010, 06:42 PM

Which direction do I need to go with the string guage, Pop's?

As an aside, my other 2 fixed bridge guitars, a 3140 and a Corvette, are great with the CCCs.

workknot · February 6th, 2010, 07:04 PM

When Synchro sees this thread, he will have a very good suggestion as to go up or down in string gauge. I always get it backwards. I wonder if it is possible the bridge post studs are improperly installed? My thinking is the strings are maybe to heavy and you should go lighter??
Pop's

Big Burly · February 6th, 2010, 07:59 PM

I think the studs are off. Not the treble-side.

I wonder if they could be reset?

Hmmm...

GreatGretsch · February 6th, 2010, 08:16 PM

Also...it is a long shot, but check your nut. Make sure the string slots are cut correctly. If the strings are touching in the back of the nut and not on the fret side it will increase the sting length causing the intonation to be wrong. Also make sure the nut is seated properly against the fretboard.

GreatGretsch · February 6th, 2010, 08:19 PM

Also....measure from the nut to the bridge slots with a tape measure. It should measure 24.6" on a Jet.

Big Burly · February 6th, 2010, 09:34 PM

The nut is in good shape. It measures as it should and is seated properly. The strings rest in the proper place.

I installed my Corvette's former bridge. Its E-A-D saddles were turned so I get more intonation room toward the neck. I can actually get the intonation much closer than before.

The studs were improperly installed.

So, Pop's, can you trade me this CCC-Al 12/2.9/2"/11-50 for a left-hand model of the same measurements?

I think this will be the answer since the G-B-E saddles are closer to the Bigsby.

All of my other guitars with ToM/AoM bridges have the E-A-D saddles closer to the tailpiece and the G-B-E saddles closer to the bridge pup. This guitar (ProJet) is the opposite of these settings.

GreatGretsch · February 7th, 2010, 12:04 AM

If it measures correctly then it the studs should be in the correct place. We must be overlooking something.
Did you try a different fresh set of strings? I have had new strings do some funky things in the past, everything from buzzing to intonation problems.
Does it sound out of tune or are you going by what the tuner shows? It could be a bum tuner.

Big Burly · February 7th, 2010, 12:17 AM

I have a Korg tuner and the AP tuner on my computer. I mostly use the AP tuner.

This issue isn't a new thing, just something that I have overlooked and ignored. Now I want to get it fixed.

Measurements?

Nut to bass-bridge stud is 24-3/4". Nut to treble-bridge stud is 24-5/8".

Nut to bridge body bass-side = 24-5/8". Nut to bridge body treble-side = 24-7/16".

tartanphantom · February 7th, 2010, 12:27 AM

Try using 11-48's. Also, check the relief in the neck. If there is no relief (neck completely flat) then add a small amount of relief. The slight forward bow will shorten the scale length by a few hundredths of an inch, which may be enough to bring the intonation in. I can't tell you exacrly how much to adjust, it's a trial-&-error process.

GreatGretsch · February 7th, 2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Burly

I have a Korg tuner and the AP tuner on my computer. I mostly use the AP tuner.

This issue isn't a new thing, just something that I have overlooked and ignored. Now I want to get it fixed.

Measurements?

Nut to bass-bridge stud is 24-3/4". Nut to treble-bridge stud is 24-5/8".

Nut to bridge body bass-side = 24-5/8". Nut to bridge body treble-side = 24-7/16".

I just measured my 5120 floating bridge that I set up. I just checked the intonation to make sure it is in the correct place. My intonation is dead on.
The measurements on it are:
Nut to bridge body bass-side = 24-7/16'. Nut to bridge body treble-side = 24-3/8".
Your bridge is 3/16 " further away from the nut than my 5120's setup. That would make a huge difference in trying to adjust your intonation. Other than resetting the studs, I would go with the suggestion of a bridge that has adjustments closer to the nut or a left handed one.

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 01:16 PM

Pop's and I are trading my RH CCC for a lefty CCC. That should get me much closer to where I need to be.

Thanks for all of the help, gang!

GreatGretsch · February 10th, 2010, 01:36 PM

That was a fun one to trouble-shoot. I wonder how many have the studs in the wrong place. I also wonder how many people would even pick up on it.

dan P · February 10th, 2010, 04:35 PM

Stranger yet, all electromatics leave the factory with a blue card that has a intonation check on it....

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 04:49 PM

Yes, it is a nutty thing, and it seems real unusual.

I have my Corvette's bridge on it right now, while Wayne and I are shipping back and forth.

The bridge looks like a left-handed bridge would look on a right-handed guitar. Literally bass-akwards!

I bought this PJ in 2007 from Shanghai Music (my hometown Gretsch store!) I'm gonna take her in and let Joel and Jay see what they can come up with.

I imagine it would be easier to correct with a different nut, like an Earvana. Taking the drill to it to move the studs would work. Even though that would ugly it up even more than the finish chugholes I have made in it over the years.

This guitar is my favorite and it has huge sentimental value, so I want to keep it.

dan P · February 10th, 2010, 05:10 PM

Or just pull the studs and put a floating bridge on her....

-PMK- · February 10th, 2010, 05:30 PM

You could let the luthier make nut with some overhang or remove little of the fretboard.
Mabye the end of the fretboard isnt in the correct angle?

workknot · February 10th, 2010, 06:22 PM

Will changing the fretboard end or overhanging the nut cause an issue with all the frets being off after doing that? Just wondering.
Pop's

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 06:48 PM

I thought about the floating bridge idea. I wonder if it would make for too-high of action.

Wayne, since I haven't figured out what repair method will happen (new nut vs pulled studs and floating bridge vs moved studs) I think I'll hold onth the RH CCC. Whenever I figure it out I'll post here and letcha know.

I'd hate to send this CCC back and forth 3 times!

-PMK- · February 10th, 2010, 06:52 PM

Workknot: Dont think so, just the open string will change, when fretted you still have same distance to the bridge from the fret.

If we intonate "backwards", put it on spot at 12'the fret, then instead of adjusting at the bridge we adjust at the nut.

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 06:57 PM

So I am taking the bull by the horns here...

I have the strings off. I have the bridge off. I have the bridge-height adjusta-doohickey off.

How in the hell do you remove the lil "innie" metal studs that the bridge-height adjusta-doohickey screws inta?

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 07:33 PM

NVM... I figgered it out!

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 08:10 PM

Okay, studs out. Now the bridge base and CCC are too high. It's like a slide guitar with "drive a truck under it" action.

I could get intonated, tho!

I can shorten them both at work tomorrow. Naturally I can't send Wayne this CCC back.

workknot · February 10th, 2010, 08:54 PM

Brian: If you remove some material from the bridge feet base and some from the aluminum CCC bridge, you may be able to get the action down. We will be awaiting your findings.
Pop's

Big Burly · February 10th, 2010, 09:24 PM

I have a big flat wheel grinder at work. I'm going to remove some of the CCC's base with that.

The rosewood will be interesting. I may grind some of it off, then sand it for better fit on the guitar when I get home.

Big Burly · February 11th, 2010, 02:02 PM

I got the bottom of the CCC ground off nice and flat at work.

I'll sand the wooden base on the guitar to get better "coupling" when I get home.

If need be I can remove the adjusting wheels for more room.

I'll post my progress later.

Big Burly · February 11th, 2010, 08:51 PM

Heh... Wow.

What a wild Franken-Jet that I have now!

Here's the sordid details.

I ground off the CCC base and sanded the rosewood base too. The rosewood isn't that close. Slow going, so I called it "good enough."

I put it together with the thumbwheels in place. The action was too high. I removed the thumbwheels and restrung it.

Now it was juuuuust slightly low. What to do? Well, I took a hole punch and punched holes in two 1.0mm delrin picks, placed them where the thumbwheels went. Restrung...

Magic! Low action. I intonated the hi and lo Es. The rest fell into place good enough for me. No string buzz!!!!

So it now has a funky bridge contraption with blue picks as spacers. It works. It sounds great. I am happy!

GreatGretsch · February 11th, 2010, 08:53 PM

I am happy it works. We need some pictures now.

pkeenan · February 18th, 2010, 10:05 PM

First, lower the pickups. It is very possible for the pickup magnets to interfere with the strings to the degree that you can not get accurate intonation.

Not knowing what sort of tuner you have, I will suggest the pc-based AP Guitar Tuner. This has an excellent display, ideal for intonation, and you just need to get the guitar signal into the PC by any means, even by microphone.

Also not knowing what method you are using for intonation, I will suggest this method, which I find produces the most in-tune notes on most of my guitars.

After lowering the pickups, tune the low E to pitch. Then, compare the 5th and 17th fret notes, and move the saddle so that those two notes match. It doesn't matter if the string drifts up or down in pitch while you do this, just that those two notes match. Repeat for the A and D.

Generally, if you can get the two outside strings intonated, the bridge is in the right place. If you can't, then yes, it is possible that the studs are mis-placed.

A non-surgical solution to this problem is a $30 bridge from Stewart-MacDonald, item 5276, "Locking Roller Bridge". You may have to pop out the stock studs, and you must be sure that the post spacing matches before ordering; but the bridge body can be moved a fair distance in either direction and locked in place. I have one of these bridges on my Epiphone WildKat and it works well.

HTH
-pk