Hello All, I would like your opinion on amp choices. Here we go, I currently play through a Crate V50 112, although I read tons of bad about them, mine works very well (after a few initial power issues) and, with a set of JJ tubes from Eurotubes sounds quite nice. I would like to change out the speaker but after reading so many negative reviews I feel it may not be worth putting any more money into it...so Ive decided on a Deluxe reverb, when I go to practive our Steel player has a silver face, sounds good, works good although Ive never actually turned it up very loud. I would pay him 1000.00 Canadian I think, same price as a DRRI.
So equal, money Silver face, very easy to repair, modify... or DRRI, warrenty... harder to fix, possibly less reliable but aims for the Black face sound.
To further confuse the issue, Ive also just joined to a stage band that does classic brass orchastra pieces, very very loud I hear (have not acutally gone to a practice yet)... Fender Super Sonic?
Thanks for any thoughts.

Hello All, I would like your opinion on amp choices. Here we go, I currently play through a Crate V50 112, although I read tons of bad about them, mine works very well (after a few initial power issues) and, with a set of JJ tubes from Eurotubes sounds quite nice. I would like to change out the speaker but after reading so many negative reviews I feel it may not be worth putting any more money into it...so Ive decided on a Deluxe reverb, when I go to practive our Steel player has a silver face, sounds good, works good although Ive never actually turned it up very loud. I would pay him 1000.00 Canadian I think, same price as a DRRI.
So equal, money Silver face, very easy to repair, modify... or DRRI, warrenty... harder to fix, possibly less reliable but aims for the Black face sound.
To further confuse the issue, Ive also just joined to a stage band that does classic brass orchastra pieces, very very loud I hear (have not acutally gone to a practice yet)... Fender Super Sonic?
Thanks for any thoughts.

I think the Silverface would be just as loud as a DRRI. Mods to blackface circuit are pretty simple and could be done by any qualified amp tech.

Thanks, L.R.R. actually volume difference between the Vintage and the RI is not really an issue, usually this amp would be played in smaller or miked sessions, for the brass band I could just use the Crate if the DR runs out of headroom.
I realize my original question is too un-focused.
I would really just like too know if given equal money. Vintage DR silver face or DRRI in terms of sound and reliability. Both can be modified, and I am a doityourselfer.
I am thinking I may have to rent a DRRI and borrow the SF both at once for a week to make a desicion. I do not have alot of experience with guitar amps as I am originally a 5 string and accoustic player that fell in love with electric guitar a few years ago.
I would like this to be the last amp I purchase for quite some time.
Any thoughts are welcome.

If you're happy, why worry?

The silverface doesn't use a PC board, which will make it serviceable for several lifetimes longer than the RI.

I think the DRRI will be less reliable and less repairable long term. The construction methods from the 50-70's were much more robust, bulletproof, and easily repaired than more modern methods.

I have a Silverface Twin and it is like a tank. I had plans of blackfacing it before I played it a lot, but really, didn't need it. Sounds great the way it is. It's a '72. If you want more dirt out of it, use an MXR Micro Amp. I love Silverfaces. My Bassman is Silverface, too.

I LOVE the supersonics, but I also love the DRRI.

If you prefer the cleaner side up to overdrive, then the DRRI is perfect. if you like your breakup and then some Supersonic. The super-sonic just doesn't have the same clean tone. The amps are pretty much in the same ballpark as far as volume tho.

I cant speak on Blackface RI's vs. the Silverfaces.... but as far as the 2 modern options I can speak a lot about either.

Thanks fellas, I do like this silverface amp but have never heard a DRRI out of the store, possibly I will still rent one (Long and Mcquae in Canada has a very convenient and in-expencive rental policy) and play them both a week but I am leaning heavily towards the Vintage Silver face.
Lizardkinged- The supersonic does look great and the burn channel and others features make it a very attractive alternative.... I would also like to rent this but in reality, I do play mostly clean. I am drawn towards the DR's because of the smooth glassy high's.

I owned a Silverface for 20+ years so am very familiar with it. It is a wonderful amp which with a little cleanup (if it hasn't been maintained) will serve you for a long time.

I investigated some of the Fender reissues and thought the Princeton was awesome. The DRRI sounded mushy to me and was pretty noisy. It didn't have the super-wide clean sound that my Silverface did.

That being said, i would have no issue buying an amp with a PCB. I think that comparison gets overblow. Amps are about the only gear we use that don't have PCB's in them. PCBs are reliable and if designed well, sound as good as handwired amps. If anything, handwired amps can be a nightmare to deal with. My silverface had a paper eyelet board that looked like an ocean during a typhoon and i was constantly trying to track down noise.

Thanks fellas, I do like this silverface amp but have never heard a DRRI out of the store, possibly I will still rent one (Long and Mcquae in Canada has a very convenient and in-expencive rental policy) and play them both a week but I am leaning heavily towards the Vintage Silver face.
Lizardkinged- The supersonic does look great and the burn channel and others features make it a very attractive alternative.... I would also like to rent this but in reality, I do play mostly clean. I am drawn towards the DR's because of the smooth glassy high's.


I would buy one of them, and try it at home at your volumes, and if you dont like it, return it for the other within 30 days no questions asked at certain places, and same thing w/ that one till you find one you enjoy. I'm thinking something in the RI line, or that silverface you mention.

They have a super reverb RI and a twin if you liked those... a few to a couple hundred more, but they might retain what you like. They reissued some bassmans as well, but thats a "bassman" channel on the supersonics.

I liked the Supersonic 22 more in my opinion, because of the reverb... it was that wet drippy cave long decay verb, and overall the only thing I didnt like was the speaker. (It could use a V30 like its 60w big bro wich in my opinion should just be on a 412) but the stock speaker sounded good not being broken in or anything.

If the money's the same I'd go for the silverface, even though I've only played (and owned) the DRRI. Atill have to try a super sonic some time.
I figure the cleans of the silverface will be warmer and sparklier than the DRRI.

I'm in an 9-piece jazz combo (5 wind instruments) and found I need pretty much the clean range of a 40W Fender to cut through if they work it. The BDRI & Bandmasters are my favourites there.

I still wonder how well that 22W DRRI would've held up with this group. I only now that my 12W Velocette didn't cut it.
I never took the DRRI to bandpractie since I couldn't really find my tone on that amp. The BDRI was the ticket for me at the time: warm cleans.:)

Maybe a handwired boutique :p

I guess that the big difference is that some idiot knocking over your silver face at a gig or dropping it a few feet would probably mean only some new tubes and maybe a re-tension on the tube sockets. The same abuse to a reissue amp might result in a cracked circuit board or other damage that puts you in too expensive to bother having to repair territory.

I'd choose the new amp myself. I've been using a PRRI for a couple of years and so far have had no problems with it.

Thank you all for the food for thought, I have pretty much verbally commited to buying the Silver face DR, I feel 1000.00 is fair to both parties ( I would hate to accidentally low-ball a friend). I will not get around to picking it up till next month but will post an update.
I doubt this amp has ever had the capacitors replaced so that will be the next bit of research.

SUGGESTION: check out the 'Tone King Imperial' at DAG Guitars....super versatile...will get all the sounds your after and more...well priced & very retro..extremely well made...Silverface & tweed & more other flavours..a bit like a Gelati shop..mmmmmm

I love my DRRI.. I would buy the silverface over it in a heart beat.
I sold my 67 BF Super Reverb after 20 years and after the mods done on the DRRi I can honestly say I dont miss the Super..but I would still go for vintage over new for the same money every day of the week.

I think the DRRI will be less reliable and less repairable long term. The construction methods from the 50-70's were much more robust, bulletproof, and easily repaired than more modern methods.

^^^THIS^^^

I think a lot of people are picking up on something via anecdotal evidence that is not widely examined in public.

Due to the actions of some European bureaucrats, there has been a global movement to comply with the RoHS resquirements. This Restriction of Hazardous Substances legislation has cursed the world with fragile, self-destructive devices that are inherently unreliable.

All because some desk jockey decided that even trace concentrations of certain materials must be eliminated from the world. For our own good, of course. :p

Let me stress that point. The goal of meeting the RoHS requirements runs counter to considerations of robust construction and long-term reliability.

At the root of this problem is the ban on lead-based solder. I have worked in labs that perform Regulatory Compliance testing since 1992. Since lead-free solder became 'de rigeur', I have watched in horror as components were spit off printed circuit boards during mechanical shock & vibration testing. The new stuff just doesn't have the same mechanical strength.

Many engineering studies have shown serious problems with degradation of RHoS-compliant printed circuit boards over fairly short periods of time. The new materials used in making the boards tend to 'grow' tendrils that can create short circuits between traces on the boards. Impossible to prevent. Impossible to repair.

This may not be considered to be a serious problem with many consumer products that are thought to be obsolete after a few months. For us, this is a very troubling issue. We tend to think in terms of 'finding my sound' and then working with that for at least several years, possibly for an entire career.

My newest guitar amp is an Ampeg Super Jet. It lasted a few months under relatively gentle use. I haven't devoted time to tracing/repairing the problem that made it suddenly go extremely microphonic, beyond swapping out some tubes. I have a pile of older V-series amps that are still running strong. The newer amp has not earned place of priveledge in my stable.

Well it was NAP day for me, I bought the SilverFace. I am not disappointed as I have done a fair bit of research and it will be what I want. For now it is not sounding so good, a bit thin and then farty/tubby as one turns up the bass & volume. The V6 position (phase inverter) has an off brand (Phillips) 12ax7a instead of a 12at7, likely part of the problem, old tired original tubes for the rest. Bias was ok @ 22ma & 427 plate voltage.
A complete set of JJ tubes from eurotubes is on the way.
Once the new tubes settle in I can compare again against my Crate v50 112. Possibly a Weber 12F50-50 watt light dope is next. So far I am told if the caps are not humming, leave em...
I am looking for warm/smooth/glassy hi end with a decent amount of clean headroom.
Any thoughts or insight welcome.

Congrats and happy NAD, No_cool_name!:)

Replace or have the 100k plate resistors in the preamp section replaced with 1W or 2W carbon resistors. If they are still the old brown 1/2W carbon comp resistors, it's likely they have drifted by about 20% now. A new set will bring back a happy punch and new sprakle to that section.

Only do this yourself if you're familiar around tube circuits.

Here is the schematic: http://ampwares.com/schematics/deluxe_reverb_boost.pdf

These are the ones you'd want to replace.
20165

[EDIT] I just noticed you already ordered a set of JJ tubes. Next time, get a set of Tung Sol 6v6s for the power section. They have a much better clean note separation and sound stage than the JJs. Their preamp tubes are nice too, especially the ecc803s (drop-in replacement 7025 = upgraded 12ax7)

+1 for the Tung Sols...enjoy

My guess is the one 12AT7 will solve all your problems, the tubes that are in there are probably all just fine. There should be a 12AT7 driving the reverb. Switch those up.

Should of read all your posts you did buy the silver face good choice

Thanks for the schematic Michiel, I will check the resistors when I open up again to bias the new tubes. Interesting comment about the Tung Sol 6v6s being much better than JJ. I have never tried them and I remember being so much happier when I replaced the stock tubes with the JJ's in my crate. Anyway, sounds as if youve used them both....next time I will try the Tung Sol 6v6s thanks.

My guess is the one 12AT7 will solve all your problems, the tubes that are in there are probably all just fine. There should be a 12AT7 driving the reverb. Switch those up.

I thought of that but was uncertain to swap them and have the 12ax7a in the reverb position as I only have 1- 12at7. Ill give that a quick try tomorrow, thanks.

Just for the record, I've been playing the same crate amp you have, along with a 2-12 peavy extension cab, with no complaints at all. (well, I wish it was 30 watts instead of 50)

That being said, i would have no issue buying an amp with a PCB. I think that comparison gets overblow. Amps are about the only gear we use that don't have PCB's in them. PCBs are reliable and if designed well, sound as good as handwired amps. If anything, handwired amps can be a nightmare to deal with. My silverface had a paper eyelet board that looked like an ocean during a typhoon and i was constantly trying to track down noise.Thanks for saying this.

I think there are very few guitarists around who keep a piece of gear long enough to wear it out, PCB or handwired.

However, those old Fenders are very nice amps. I had a few of them back in the day, and I wouldn't mind having one now. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

I'm not sure a 12AX7 can handle all the voltage and current the 12AT7 does driving the reverb. I was thinking you can pull the 12AT7 and put it in the phase inverter. I think the amp will run ok without that tube, but check with someone!

[Well, maybe the 12ax7 will be ok.]

I'm not sure a 12AX7 can handle all the voltage and current the 12AT7 does driving the reverb. I was thinking you can pull the 12AT7 and put it in the phase inverter. I think the amp will run ok without that tube, but check with someone!

[Well, maybe the 12ax7 will be ok.]

True, in all honesty, I’ve decided to leave the amp alone until the new tubes come in and then make an assessment. As it stands there is also some low grade static/popping that I am attributing to tube failure or poor socket connection.
I think messing with it any further without a proper starting point (correct tubes) will just make me regret my purchase decision.
Once I've tightened, cleaned the socket connections, installed and biased the new tubes, checked resistances as per Michiel's sugggestion hopefully the amp will be back in fighting shape.

Just for the record, I've been playing the same crate amp you have, along with a 2-12 peavy extension cab, with no complaints at all. (well, I wish it was 30 watts instead of 50)

Cool, I've actually gotten quite a new appreication for the crate.