So,

Am I right in saying headroom is the amount of clean sound your amp can push out before it starts to break up?

And to your experience what amp has the most clean headroom?!

D

Yes you are.

Loudest cleans?
Fender Twin Reverb or Showman (Reverb), preferrably silverface or blackface.

EAR-BLEEDING-LOUD-CLEANS! :eek::D:p

Silverface Twin reverb.

Awesome! I'm learning :)

So in comparison, Where does a Bassman rank?

Fender 300PS.

Silverface twin reverb 135w version. Nice amp

Awesome! I'm learning :)

So in comparison, Where does a Bassman rank?

The bassman has a 2x6l6gc output stage, while the twin and the showman have 4 6l6gc tubes driving the speaker.

So, the twin and showman will be twice as loud as the bassman.

A vintage bassman should break up pretty early, maybe 3 or 4 on the volume knob. Its part of it's unique sound.

Awesome! I'm learning :)

So in comparison, Where does a Bassman rank?
The 45 Watt, '59 Bassman has very little headroom. The newer, blonde tolex Bassman has more but is a somewhat darker, warmer sound than the Blackface Twin which is very clear and has a lot of headroom.

Basically, any Blackface Twin will stay clean up to the point of permanent hearing loss. My '65 RI has been used for any number of outdoor gigs and I've never had it close to breakup, not even close to close. The Blackface Twin will eventually breakup but it has a fairly wide plateau of semi-overdriven sound before it fuzzes out. Think of Hendrix' sound on The Wind Cries Mary.

Mmmmm!.Do you mean Max Headroom ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/MaxheadroomMpegMan.jpg

:D, Sorry, could not resist :D

Seriously, A SF twin with orange JBL's (have one, ouch, my back)

haha, M. There's a pic from the past! :D

I just pulled out my old SF Fender Twin Reverb (with JBLs) from storage just last week and can confirm those things have crazy headroom and are louder than you'd ever need.

Mmmmm.. definitely Fender Twin. Tastiest amp for headroom bar NONE!

You want headroom? You need this:

www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad54827.html

Saw some guys play a few weeks back.
Really good country band, I mean, REALLY good. Steel guitar, and dual Telecasters.
The 2 guitarists were playing through Fender Twins. Clean as county water, but LOUD!!!!

I used to be confused by headroom....until earlier this year to be fair.

I have several amps, but my favourite amp is my (Omega Amps modified) Fender HR Deluxe (plus cab).

It does a great Fender clean sound (and Marshall, and Dumble), but it's unlike any other amp i've heard. Other amps sound compressed, but on the Fender setting, this amp has an amazing sparkling free sound, incredibly open - but backed up by serious guts. If you play is softly, the amp sounds wonderful, and if you whack the strings, the windows pop out of their frames. It sounds BIG!

It delivers over and above anything else I've tried - and is a million miles away from the FHR Deville (4x10) i had prior to that - even though they're based on roughtly the same circuit.

So, that cavenous open sound, with huge scope for gentle picking and window smashing attack (without touching the volume knob) - what is that called? I used to think that was headroom, but i've known for some time that it isn't.

So, that cavenous open sound, with huge scope for gentle picking and window smashing attack (without touching the volume knob) - what is that called? I used to think that was headroom, but i've known for some time that it isn't.

I call that the dynamics, responsiveness or punchyness of the amp, depending on my mood.;)

My BDRI does a great job at that too. Kick-in-the-gut type punch when you want it, yet gentle and transparent when you pic softly. Me likey.:p

The match between speaker, OT and power tubes has a lot of influence on a amp's punchyness.

Good call.

Hiwatt DR103 100 watt. Nothing bigger and cleaner in my opinion. It is an experience. To push one into overdrive, your pant legs will flap and you will need to clear it with local authorities. My strings sound like a Steinway piano and if I lean into it, the punch of the attack and tight bass are like a SCUD missle. Fender Twins run for cover.
http://www.twotribesmusic.co.uk/inventory/images/168_small-1%20Hiwatt_%20cab%20fr_s.jpg

All this chest-beating about being loud is ok but I have learned that if you want to really sound GOOD you should use the smallest tube amp that the venue will allow.

All this chest-beating about being loud is ok but I have learned that if you want to really sound GOOD you should use the smallest tube amp that the venue will allow.

The question was about maximum, clean headroom and volume always comes into play. I play clean and when in a dinner club will use a Vox AC30. In a worship service I go direct through a Tech 21 Leeds (Hiwatt emulator) and Line 6 X3 no amp at all other than a monitor. There is beauty in a clean high powered tube amp and a 5 to 20 watter just does not do it for me. I loath a dimmed Marshall. If the question is low to mid-gain, low volume power tube mojo, absolutely a 15 watt class A amp cannot be touched.

The best amp I found for clean sound was - by far - the 1965 Fender Twin I played in my old band. I no longer have that amp - just as well though---a real pain to lug around to gigs. I currently use a 1965 Pro Reverb for gigs. I call it a useable Twin. Real clean amp - but again - it's heavy and a real chore to lug around. I've been using my old Deluxe Reverb mainly just because it's more manageable to haul around, set up etc.,---but I run into problems with it breaking up too soon. I just need to learn how to use it in conjunction with the guitar volume and the clean boost I just bought.

There are times at night when I am playing my resophonics - where I catch myself being more intrigued and turned on by the cones working their magic than I am with an amplified sound........................................ maybe I'm just getting old.

Hey, Dan, are you familiar with the book "The Soul of Tone" by Tom Wheeler? It's a terrific read, even when it gets really technical. It's helping me to understand some of the more intricate elements of ampage. I'd recommend it highly. Of course, it helps to have a Fender disposition before jumping in -- the subtitle is "Celebrating 60 Years of Fender Amps." I doubt that I'll ever wander over into another brand....

I like that Hiwatt - those things are awesome!

Hey, Dan, are you familiar with the book "The Soul of Tone" by Tom Wheeler? It's a terrific read, even when it gets really technical. It's helping me to understand some of the more intricate elements of ampage. I'd recommend it highly. Of course, it helps to have a Fender disposition before jumping in -- the subtitle is "Celebrating 60 Years of Fender Amps." I doubt that I'll ever wander over into another brand....

I've never felt the need to go beyond Fender amps myself. Between the tweeds and the blackface amps there's plenty of variety, not to mention some of the unusual models that have a unique twist on the Fender sound. There are other amps I like a lot such as the 18 watt Marshall or its kin, the 2061, but for most gigs my Blackface amps do the trick.

Yes I have found Fender Twins to stay clean but there are tranny amps that do the same.My Bassman 50 stays clean up until 5 on the VOL and then it turns mushy and unpleasant.Its loud though.On the other hand I like my Marshall JTM 45 because after 6 on the VOL it turns to sonic dirt.

Deleted...wrong thread.
Duh.

The bassman has a 2x6l6gc output stage, while the twin and the showman have 4 6l6gc tubes driving the speaker.

So, the twin and showman will be twice as loud as the bassman.

Louder but not really twice as loud since for each 3 decibels of volume increase you must double the power. Also the speakers you're running affect the volume (1) if you've got one 8 ohm speaker a Twin or Showman is 85w RMS but (2) if you've got two 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel (think Twin Reverb) the amp will put out around 115w RMS. Considerably louder.

If your Twin has JBL D120F speakers you can expect a 2.5 db increase in volume solely due to the efficiency of the JBLs:eek: which have 26 lb. alnico "W" shaped magnets and 4 inch edgewound flat wire voice coils with a really tight flux gap. The JBL magnets are shaped such that almost no magnetic energy is lost, you can't stick your control pedal to the speaker magnet 'cause there is no magnetism escaping.:cool:

Louder but not really twice as loud since for each 3 decibels of volume increase you must double the power. Also the speakers you're running affect the volume (1) if you've got one 8 ohm speaker a Twin or Showman is 85w RMS but (2) if you've got two 8 ohm speakers wired in parallel (think Twin Reverb) the amp will put out around 115w RMS. Considerably louder.

If your Twin has JBL D120F speakers you can expect a 2.5 db increase in volume solely due to the efficiency of the JBLs:eek: which have 26 lb. alnico "W" shaped magnets and 4 inch edgewound flat wire voice coils with a really tight flux gap. The JBL magnets are shaped such that almost no magnetic energy is lost, you can't stick your control pedal to the speaker magnet 'cause there is no magnetism escaping.:cool:

Right you are. 3 db is not much of a volume change, about the least that the average person can perceive.

The most headroom I have ever experienced is my 1971 Ampeg V4 full stack. It's the same amp that Keith Richards used during the Exile on Main Street years. It's almost impossible to get it to break up without causing permanent hearing loss. It's awesome!

Silverface twin reverb 135w version. Nice amp

Recently sold my silverface 135 watt twin (I bought it in 1979) and used the $$ to build a tweed deluxe - I wanted the dirt!! Each to his own. Love my tweed. Don't miss the twin - but yes, gotta be the cleanest amp.

Right you are. 3 db is not much of a volume change, about the least that the average person can perceive.

Well 3 db is pretty much louder, just not twice as loud. The JBLs are quite a bit louder (and a heck of a lot brighter)) than the regular Utahs or whatever else Fender used in Twin Reverb Amps. I believe most would notice 1.5 db for sure.

Well, 3dB actually IS twice as loud. That is the definition in the domain of sound pressure at least. You'll definitely notice 3dB too.

I think you will find this more accurate - yes 3dB is the resultant increase of a doubling of power, but is generally regarded as as "noticable increase" in loudness.

A 10dB change is generally regarded as being twice as loud.

bob

The most headroom I have ever experienced is my 1971 Ampeg V4 full stack. It's the same amp that Keith Richards used during the Exile on Main Street years. It's almost impossible to get it to break up without causing permanent hearing loss. It's awesome!

I have a 1976 VT-22 (2x12" combo version of the V-4) that I stuffed a quartet of KT88 power tubes into. It's like having a pet Siberian tiger - major mojo, but you can't turn it loose anywhere! Clean headroom 'til your eyes bleed. Much more adjustable tone section than anything offered by either Fender or Marshall.

That's it on the left, and on the bench:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/WestofDeerfoot/VT-15/01_VT-22__VT-40.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/WestofDeerfoot/VT-15/07_cab_in_progress.jpg

I think you will find this more accurate - yes 3dB is the resultant increase of a doubling of power, but is generally regarded as as "noticable increase" in loudness.

A 10dB change is generally regarded as being twice as loud.

bob

Wow, you guys must be LOUD!:D

I dove into literature and the truth is in the middle.

My assertion of 3dB isn't quite it.
3dB is doubling of -power-, and will give 3dB increase of volume.
However, a doubling of volume would need a 6dB increase (=20*log10(2)).

So, to get a factor 2 increase in volume, you'll need a factor 4 increase in amp output power!

10dB is a factor 3 increase in volume (20*log10(x)=10 => x=10^(10/20)=3.162..).
And 10dB constitutes a factor 10 increase in amp power!




I have a 1976 VT-22 (2x12" combo version of the V-4) that I stuffed a quartet of KT88 power tubes into.


Ohooooh:p
I'd LOVE to hear that one!
Cab you turn it up a little?;)

Yes you are.

Loudest cleans?
Fender Twin Reverb or Showman (Reverb), preferrably silverface or blackface.

EAR-BLEEDING-LOUD-CLEANS! :eek::D:p

i agree

Yes you are.

Loudest cleans?
Fender Twin Reverb or Showman (Reverb), preferrably silverface or blackface.

EAR-BLEEDING-LOUD-CLEANS!

I have a 1976 VT-22 (2x12" combo version of the V-4) that I stuffed a quartet of KT88 power tubes into. It's like having a pet Siberian tiger - major mojo, but you can't turn it loose anywhere! Clean headroom 'til your eyes bleed. Much more adjustable tone section than anything offered by either Fender or Marshall.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h230/WestofDeerfoot/VT-15/01_VT-22__VT-40.jpg


What are the big differences between a Twin Reverb owner and a VT-22 owner?

Deafness and a hernia.

Loudest, and maybe heaviest, 2x12 combo ever built.Mine 'scopes 130 W at less than 1% distortion, and weighs 96 pounds. :cool:

this may clear some things up....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuzpsO4ErOQ

I'm sure a Twin is the king of clean, but I have a Black Face 67 Super Reverb that doesnt even start a mild break up until over 6 on the volume knob.. There is no gig on earth (including outside weddings for 500 people) where I can open this thing up and have it work for stage volume. For 50's music and a little surf thrown in.. that rich rich silky smooth reverb and crystal clean clear sparkly tone is magic through a Gretsch.

It is L O U D !

I have played through many twins. I have never actually owned one for more than a week, but I would have to say the Black Face Super would at least hold its own against a Twin for headroom. Four tens is moving a lot more air than two 12's

My Roland JC120 was voted the loudest amp at Summerfest 4 years in a row, 86-90, by Clearwing Sound (they run the big stages)

haven't used it since

And to your experience what amp has the most clean headroom?! D

Gracious, that's literally a quadratic equation!

Soldano SLO-100?
MusicMan HD130-212?
Rivera R100-212?
Somebody's 200-watt amp?
Somebody's 500-watt amp?

For me personally, the question is more a matter of headroom AND texture. I've heard loads of amps with plenty of headroom that sounded uber-thin, and conversely, plenty of amps that were thick and bold sounding, but lacked headroom.

I saw Vince Gill perform once with a pair of Rivera R100s in stereo, and using his EMG-equipped Strat, it was a bevy of thick, rich, almost layered cleans to die-for with headroom to burn. But alas, the Rivera R100 is no-more.

Gracious, that's literally a quadratic equation!

For me personally, the question is more a matter of headroom AND texture. I've heard loads of amps with plenty of headroom that sounded uber-thin, and conversely, plenty of amps that were thick and bold sounding, but lacked headroom.

True that is Dude.:cool:

If all you want is headroom, use a keyboard amp or an acoustic amp, preferably 100w or more. If you've got good pickups (Dynas for me!) and a hollow body guitar, you'll get some nice texture too. If you've got HiloTrons, or a Strat or Tele, it'll sound thin.

If you want texture with your headroom, with most guitars you'll need tubes, good transformers and some experimenting with your tone and volume settings. When I plug into a strange amp I start with the tone controls flat (i. e. at 5), the guitar volume and tone all the way up and then gradually bring up the volume until it's where I want it. Most Fender amps start to clip a bit between 3 and 4 but that tube amp clip is cool if you don't overdo it. If the amp has a master volume, run it up to 10 and then bring up the gain til it's at the volume you want. Then tweak the controls from there. It is just the opposite of what you do if you want distortion.

Once again, all this is a matter of personal taste. "De gustibus non est desputandum," which is roughly Latin for "Taste cannot be disputed.";)

I'm gonna say I "out clean" all y'all! I didnt think it was possible with some of the amps I've owned in the past but this Bassman 135 w/ its ultralinear output transformer and biased for KT88s... holy mother even dual 1x15 cabs loaded with eminence kappas (rated 300RMS) cant keep up with it and go into breakup at less than half volume.

Needless to say. the amp just sits there.. its the devil. my virtuous blonde angels sing to me in more reasonable level'd heavenly voicings.
http://static-l3.blogcritics.org/10/08/10/141001/Fullscreen-capture-8102010-113512-AM.jpg

For sure.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/beachbum47/GRETCH/FMT013.jpg

For sure.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j356/beachbum47/GRETCH/FMT013.jpg

It doesn't get much better than that.

It doesn't get much better than that.

Yes, yes indeed. My son's running a caddy green duo jet through one of those clean monsters right now....yikes!

Yes, yes indeed. My son's running a caddy green duo jet through one of those clean monsters right now....yikes!

When we play outdoor gigs and I get to play through the Twin outside . . . it's a beautiful thing. :)

When we play outdoor gigs and I get to play through the Twin outside . . . it's a beautiful thing. :)

It's a great amp for the natural world at large, ain't it? :D

Hiwatt DR103 100 watt. Nothing bigger and cleaner in my opinion. It is an experience. To push one into overdrive, your pant legs will flap and you will need to clear it with local authorities. My strings sound like a Steinway piano and if I lean into it, the punch of the attack and tight bass are like a SCUD missle. Fender Twins run for cover.
http://www.twotribesmusic.co.uk/inventory/images/168_small-1%20Hiwatt_%20cab%20fr_s.jpg

+1000. My 1975 DR504 is only 50 watts, but can kill small animals at 200 yards. I had a SF Twin that I hooked up to my Hiwatt 412 and gassed it at various points up the master, then cranked the master and slowly turned up the normal. I did the same thing with the Hiwatt, and both the tone and power were much more usable musically, and the volume and projection made the Twin sound thin and ice picky-even after much EQ fiddling. Live I have never had a problem shutting up any volume hog Marshall person even if they are using 100 watters. Nothing makes a guitar player rethink his excessive volume quicker than the other guys amp drowning him out when he's well into losing their headroom. At that point, I stop, say let's turn down now, and we get a good stage volume.

Tavo-the Hiwatt 200 has KT-88s, would love to do the pepsi-challenge with ANY Fender guitar amp. At that volume, I think we would need eight 412 closed back cabs rated at least 300 watts each. That would be fun.

The old Ampeg V-4, wow, my buddy has one and it really killed in the clean headroom and volume department. Only amp I've ever heard that gives the old Hiwatt a run for it's money.

Just one going deafs man opinion-haha.

Tavo-the Hiwatt 200 has KT-88s . . . I think we would need eight 412 closed back cabs rated at least 300 watts each.

Now that's some SERIOUSLY perverted math! Haaa! Somebody go phone Dick Dale!

It's a great amp for the natural world at large, ain't it? :D

It's a match made in heaven. If you don't believe me, be at the Tucson Veteran's Hospital at 1:00 on the 13th where it will be powering an outdoor gig.